Does Calvanism REALLY Turn God Into A Puppet master us Into puppets?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe).

Here is what I know for a fact......Prior to salvation, I neither wanted salvation nor did I believe in Him......my sin was unbelief. I despised everything Christian.

 

[Winman]

"The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

You never said a truer word my Brother! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

your ducks are in a row!!!

With your concept of justice, I hope none of you ever gets selected for jury duty.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Here is what I know.....prior to salvation I hated Christians and anything to do with God. Never would I have wanted salvation nor would I ever have asked for it.....my sin was total & utter unbelief. So how could I ever believe in your system of salvation. Makes NO sense

 

[jbh28]

With your concept of justice, I hope none of you ever gets selected for jury duty.

God wasn't obligated to save anyone. True justice would have been to send us all to hell. We sinned against an infinite God and have nothing to deserve being saved nor the chance to be saved.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God wasn't obligated to save anyone. True justice would have been to send us all to hell. We sinned against an infinite God and have nothing to deserve being saved nor the chance to be saved.

Ah come on JBH, you aren't being fair ... :laugh:

Then again from my point of view God is merciful to me a foul, degenerate, sin riddled creature. I deserve hell & I get heaven.....what a gift! Thank you Lord! Praise you Lord! He has opened my eyes, He has softened my heart.....He has shown me Mercy. What else could I want or ever hope for?:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

A puppet master, a world of robots, you could go on and on with metaphores.
You could do that if you want to remain opposed to scriptural truth and question God's purpose.

A theology that teaches that.....

3) All of mankind are completely and totally evil in every way, and have no ability to, in any way, seek God.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Looks like bible teaching here that you evidently do not care for.

.....pretty much deserves any and all unfflatering descriptions that people might come up with.

It makes a mockery of the scriptures that teach that God is Love, and that God does not desire that any would perish and that all should come to repentance and eternal life.

Not to anyone who understands the verses correctly.


And no, I am not advocating for universalism.

...........

 

[Alive in Christ]

jbh28....

God wasn't obligated to save anyone.

Thats correct.

He is not obligated to save anyone.

But the scriptures make it abunduntly clear that His hearts desire is to draw people to Himself and save them all. Not one person will be lost because of chance or circumstance. They will be lost because they chose to be lost.

Just like the saved are saved because they chose to take God up on His offer and place their faith in Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

jbh28....



Thats correct.

He is not obligated to save anyone.

But the scriptures make it abunduntly clear that His hearts desire is to draw people to Himself and save them all. Not one person will be lost because of chance or circumstance. They will be lost because they chose to be lost.

Just like the saved are saved because they chose to take God up on His offer and place their faith in Christ.

OK....I chose to be lost....how come I am not?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So I must conclude because I tire of repeating this.... Salvation is all of God & none of us.

Blessings & peace :sleeping_2:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You posted these scriptures....

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

2The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Wonderfull scriptures.

If you take those scriptures and view them in light of the whole of Gods scriptures you will begin to see Gods beautiful truth in wonderfull and liberating balance

You are a bright guy, I am certain of that. You can do it if you are willing to try.

 

[Iconoclast]

jbh28....



Thats correct.

He is not obligated to save anyone.
Yes he is obligated to save all the elect that were given to Him
But the scriptures make it abunduntly clear that His hearts desire is to draw people to Himself

the scripture does not teach this...you do.

and save them all.

Never has been Gods plan...

Not one person will be lost because of chance or circumstance. They will be lost because they chose to be lost.

They were okay..then choose to be lost? Which scripture teaches this?

Just like the saved are saved because they chose to take God up on His offer and place their faith in Christ.

Well...if you have the lost part wrong, it follows that you will be wrong here also.

 

[Winman]

God wasn't obligated to save anyone. True justice would have been to send us all to hell. We sinned against an infinite God and have nothing to deserve being saved nor the chance to be saved.

I don't have a problem whatsoever with God sending people who are old enough to understand right from wrong and willingly choose to sin to hell.

But I have a HUGE problem believeing God could be just sending babies or little children who have no concept of right and wrong to hell, ESPECIALLY if they were born with a sin nature and cannot possibly do anything but sin.

And I think I can show you your error from scripture, but I doubt you will receive it.

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not labored, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than six-score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Should God be responsible for his creation? Are we responsible for our children? Would you be good or just if you brought children into the world and then neglected to clothe or feed them until they died?

I think this is the very question God was asking Jonah. He labored to create us, he made us to grow. Then he asks Jonah SHOULD NOT I SPARE NINEVEH where there are 120,000 little children who cannot tell one hand from another? And notice he also cares for cattle that cannot sin. Jesus said we are worth more than many sparrows.

Like a loving parent, God feels a duty and responsibility for his creation, especially the innocent.

Those who are grown and willingly reject God are another matter, their condemnation is just.

I think many of you do not understand God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You said...

Well...if you have the lost part wrong, it follows that you will be wrong here also.

Thats fine. You can believe that if you want.


But PLEASE Iconoclast. God has an entire book full of His divinely inspired scriptures. Read and study ALL of them, Iconoclast. Take your calvinism writings and and read them in light of the whole of Gods scriptures...rather than the other way around.

It will be liberating for you.

God bless

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast...

You said...



Thats fine. You can believe that if you want.


But PLEASE Iconoclast. God has an entire book full of His divinely inspired scriptures. Read and study ALL of them, Iconoclast. Take your calvinism writings and and read them in light of the whole of Gods scriptures...rather than the other way around.

It will be liberating for you.

God bless

AIC,

You seem like a nice person.I think you are sincere.I am not sure how to explain it to you except to say that it is the whole scripture study that leads to this doctrine. I am trying to explain it to you ,but you need to see it for yourself. Quantum offered an arminian site that tries to look at it from a more scriptural point of view in that they do post some reformed men.
Maybe you will see the contrast this way.

here..for you
http://arminiantoday.blogspot.com/2011/01/election-calvinism-and-bible-part-one.html

 

[Alive in Christ]

EWF...

OK....I chose to be lost....how come I am not?

Probably because at some point in time you chose to "believe". You entered into a faith relationship with God/Christ as a result of the Holy Spirits work.

Granted, it may not have been a *profound* and *breathtaking* experience like mine was, but you WERE aware and you knew what was going on.

Its either that, or God put you into a deep trance and then you woke up and discovered, to your complete surprise, that you now believed in Christ.

I dont think the second option is very feasable.

 

[quantumfaith]

"The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"

This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.

However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes. The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"

I don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. I believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!

Amen, Amen, Amen........

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF...



Probably because at some point in time you chose to "believe". You entered into a faith relationship with God/Christ as a result of the Holy Spirits work.

Granted, it may not have been a *profound* and *breathtaking* experience like mine was, but you WERE aware and you knew what was going on.

Its either that, or God put you into a deep trance and then you woke up and discovered, to your complete surprise, that you now believed in Christ.

I dont think the second option is very feasable.

your not listening Alive in Christ. I was an enemy of God for 53 years, so your theory holds no water. Sorry.

Also my salvation is very new to me & I spent allot of time focusing on what happened so I am not lying. And if you bothered to ask others their testimony you would be surprised how many walked around with no wish to have salvation prior being saved. Why do you think we Calvinists hold so tightly to our belief system.......here is a clue.....because it's TRUE! No other way to explain it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Skan said....

It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!


Honestly.....how do you see God as deceptive? To even go there is not a good thing. I spent my entire life in non belief & even blasphemed Him. Sin was my God, & I shamefully worshiped it..... It was my only reality & I laughed at all of you for being suckers. To give a guy like me who's greatest sin was unbelief a new life ....well now that is a precious gift indeed.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't have a problem whatsoever with God sending people who are old enough to understand right from wrong and willingly choose to sin to hell.

But I have a HUGE problem believeing God could be just sending babies or little children who have no concept of right and wrong to hell, ESPECIALLY if they were born with a sin nature and cannot possibly do anything but sin.

And I think I can show you your error from scripture, but I doubt you will receive it.

Jon 4:10 Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not labored, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than six-score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?

Should God be responsible for his creation? Are we responsible for our children? Would you be good or just if you brought children into the world and then neglected to clothe or feed them until they died?

I think this is the very question God was asking Jonah. He labored to create us, he made us to grow. Then he asks Jonah SHOULD NOT I SPARE NINEVEH where there are 120,000 little children who cannot tell one hand from another? And notice he also cares for cattle that cannot sin. Jesus said we are worth more than many sparrows.

Like a loving parent, God feels a duty and responsibility for his creation, especially the innocent.

Those who are grown and willingly reject God are another matter, their condemnation is just.

I think many of you do not understand God.

Most of we calvinists that have posted here on BB though have explained to you and others that we DO believe that God will have compassion on those like Infants/mentally challenged etc persons...

that in the Cross, God will chosse to 'cover them" by grace offeerred by atoning death of jesus Christ, and until they become personally responsible before God, accountible to Him for their sins, that God will fordae them...

still are sinner by birth and choice, but the Lord will forbade them , just as he "overlooked" in a fashion man sins and transgressions done in past, up until time of Cross of Christ, as per Apostle Paul!

 

[JesusFan]

Does it seem fair to you? Does it seem fair that the moment you are conceived, for no fault of your own, that you are a sinner condemned to eternity in hell? What have you done to deserve eternal damnation?

Does it seem fair that you are conceived with a sin nature and incapable of doing anything but sinning, and are condemned for the only thing you can do?

How about you answering a question, does this seem fair to you?

well, since in my understanding, the Lord has enabled the Cross to be a "covering" for those under age of their personal accountiblity for their sins to Him...

Since all of us willfully choose daily to disobey God, to sin against law of God, to choose to "play God" lives...

Since NONE of us are rightious, no not one...

Since i CAN trust the Lord of whole earth to judge rightious manner...

How dare I say God will be unjust and unfair in whatever he decides to do?