Does Calvinism teach that we are born-again TWICE!

Cassidy,
Your attitude toward other posters who disagree with you is truly that of a disingenuous Pharisee!

 

John,

Being saved is usually the whole process from justification on to glorification. It is rarely, if ever, used to refer to anything prior to justification (i.e., calling, election, regeneration, conversion). Calvinist citations can be found in any Calvinist discussion of the ordo salutis. I recommend something like Murray's Redemption: Accomplished and Appplied to begin with.

 

Larry
You are very wrong in your false accusations of me Larry. If you can prove I did such a thing then prove it. How would I change your words. Do you believe I have the authority to go to your post and change some thing.
Prove what you claim Larry
Mike

 

Thank you Larry. That's all I have been asking for, a citation. I will see what Murray has to say.

 

I already have proven it, Mike. I showed you exactly, and now, for everyone in here to see, you are asking me to do it again.

On page 1, you said (and I cut pasted it to get it exact: So you say we are regenerated first or saved first in order to have faith.

I did not say that. I said nothing about being saved first in order to have faith. You changed my words, and now, instead of apologizing and dropping it, you have made me point it out twice for all to see.

Then you said you didn't change what I said. That was dishoneset because you did. The words I put down were there for a very specific reason. When you added "or saved" you changed my words and what they meant.

Your best bet would be to back off before this goes further. You know you did wrong. Apologize and get past it.

 

Regeneration = Born Again!
I agree with that!

Regeneration = Salvation!
I disagree with that!

Born Again = Salvation!
I disagree with that!

HAVING FAITH IN GOD = SALVATION!
I STRONGLY AGREE WITH THAT!

HAVING FAITH = DYING FROM THE NATURAL LIFE, BYPASSING JUDGMENT, AND THE SECOND DEATH = SALVATION! YES!!!!

LACKING FAITH = DYING FROM THE NATURAL LIFE, BEING JUDGED, GETTING CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE, THE SECOND DEATH!

THAT IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY! I BELIEVE THAT!

And, yes, it is something to shout about!

 

Larry;
First you say this is what I canged.
So, you are saying that "Regeneration" does not mean to be "born-again"? This was my question.
Then you claim this is what I changed.

You're still wrong larry and falsely accusing me you can't even make up your mind what I said. I guess Mr Cassidy didn't point it out clearly enough. There is one problem there is no quotation marks and it's not in a quote box. I wasn't claiming they were your words that's your false accusation. You should know better.
This is what I was referring to because it is what you are saying.

This is saying the same thing either way you look at it. You loose
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

When you say "So you say ..." with a period at the end, that is a statement changing my words. It is a claim that I was saying something, and it was a wrong claim. I will grant you the question on the first one (though I believe it is disingenous). There is no escaping the second. That is not what I was saying.

Mike, you are walking on thin ice ... You need to reform your ways.

 

Larry;

Are you treatening me Larry?.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hey John,

Let me see if I can help clarify things a bit for you.

What you've stated here is not quite what Calvinists believe about the order of salvation. It's really not exactly correct to say that a Calvinist believes that regeneration precedes salvation. Regeneration is part of salvation--it's the first step of our experience of the saving work of the spirit.

And the logical (or causal) order of the instantaneous part of salvation isn't Regeneration - Faith - Belief - Salvation, but more correctly: Regeneration - Faith/Repentance - Justification - Adoption. The regeneration (or being born again) is an act of the Spirit that gives us a different disposition toward God so that we do respond with repentance/faith. On the basis of our faith we are justified (counted as righteous), and on the basis of being declared righteous, we become adopted children of God. All instantaneous, all part of salvation, but there is a causal order.

Most often, when we use the word salvation in a casual way in casual conversations, we use it as a synonym for justification. That's not wrong--the scripture uses it that way sometimes--but that's not the only way the word is used in scripture.

Sometimes, for instance, scripture uses the word "salvation" as synonymous with glorification, which doesn't happen until the last day, like in the first chapter of 1st Peter where it says we are begotten again to a living hope, and kept by God's power for salvation ready to be revealed in the last day.

So theological systems (even the non-calvinistic ones) have a more specific order of salvation that includes the more specific terms than just "salvation". A typical non-calvinistic ordo salutis goes something like this: Repentance/faith - Regeneration - Justification - Adoption. Same steps, you'll notice, but different logical order. Someone repents/has faith, and on the basis of that repentence they are regenerated (or born again)--their disposition toward God is changed--and then they are justified (counted righteous) and adopted. All instantaneous, all part of salvation, but with a specific causal order.

(Most orders of salvation (non-calvinist and calvinist alike) also include sanctification and glorification, but these are not instantaneous with the other steps in the order. Sanctification is a process that occurs over time, and glorification occurs in an instant on the last day. )

 

I have no idea.

 

Larry;
My Post should have read
Are you threatening me.
Mike

 

Take it as you will ...

 

Is there a single Calvinist that DOES NOT BELIEVE that regeneration Precede Salvation? Without regeneration there is no salvation!

 

Hi Icthus;

Very true the reason Calvinist put you down is because they want us to be on there level. They are incapable of defending there heresies. They know this and this is what causes grown men to falsely accuse there brothers. The gospel was written in the simplest terms to confound the wise and there actions show that this is true. They can't accept a simple gospel so they attempt to complicate it.
No doubt, I will be accused of lying again. Because of my statement but, they forget that there own inabilities prove what I just said is true.
May Christ Shine His Light on Us all;
Mike

 

Guys, I don't claim to understand the doctrines of salvation. But to be honest wif yuz, even though I've had calvinistic tendencies most of my short life, I had never heard of regeneration being seperate from salvation until just a few weeks ago.

Here's the way I see it: there's a lot going on when a person is saved. It is an amazing miracle and a complete act of God, a transformation. I believe we are called, drawn to him--he opens our eyes and gives us what we need to turn to him--I HAVE NO CLUE how that works, or what happens first or what happens second, and I won't ever claim to know that.

I just know I'm saved, and that's what matters most to me. AMEN?

 

NO Calvinists (at least none that I know) believe that regeneration PRECEDES salvation because they believe that regeneration is PART OF salvation. It's just not the SAME THING as salvation because it's not the WHOLE OF salvation.

Absolutely, and no Calvinist disagrees with that....

 

Amen and amen.