Does Calvinism teach that we are born-again TWICE!

And every single Calvinist believes that anyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. They even believe that believing is a CONDITION of salvation--that believing results in salvation.

NO! Calvinists DO NOT say salvation preceeds faith. WE DO SAY regeneration preceeds faith. But you've heard this all before and refuse to acknowledge that when a Calvinist speaks of salvation and regeneration, they are not using the words as exact synonyms. So your argument is disingenuous, but I suppose is the only argument that's left for you to make when you can't find any verses that argue that REGENERATION (or BEING BORN AGAIN) precedes faith.

So, if you want to use that verse to argue against regeneration preceding faith, then your going to have to come up with a verse or two that make regeneration the exact equivalent of salvation? Otherwise that verse doesn't help your argument.

How about this one?

Oops, that one doesnt work, does it? If God saves us BY regeneration, then regeneration is a cause of salvation, and can't be the EXACT EQUIVALENT of salvation. Well, that eliminates substituting the word "regeneration" for "salvation" in any equation. That means your "Salvation (Regeneration) preceeds Faith" duck is a dead duck.

Square what with the Word of God? That salvation precedes faith? Don't have to, 'cause I don't believe it.

Or perhaps that regeneration precedes faith? Easy. Start with Titus 3:5. We are saved by regeneration.

Then move to Ephesians 2: We were made alive again WHILE we are dead in sin--yep, we were made alive again while we were walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: while we were fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. This is the condition we were in when God, in his mercy, quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).

Call me crazy, but walking according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, and fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind doesn't sound a whole lot like FAITH to me.

Then there's John 1:

Those that believe WERE (past tense) born of God. Being born precedes the believing.

And John 3: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

The Spirit, in the work of rebirth, is like the wind. He is not called down in response to anything.

Or 1 Peter 1: We are begotten again TO a lively hope. Being begotten again is the cause of our undying hope, rather than the result of it. The faithful trust we have in God and his promises for our inheritance comes because we are begotten again. Being born again logically precedes our trust in God's promises for us.

There you go. Squared "regeneration precedes faith" for you.

How about squaring "faith precedes regeneration" with scripture? Turnabout's fair play, right?

If you can't, then just say so.

 

Their being born again results (instantaneously) in their having faith. It is a cause of their faith. "Begotten again TO a living hope."

Let me ask again: Where do you find any scripture at all that says we are born again AS A RESULT OF having faith? You seem to assume it's obvious, so you ought to be able to show it from scripture, right?

 

Okay, then show me from the rest of scripture that being born again follows faith....

You seem to be awfully quick to pooh-pooh other's evidence, but very slow to provide any of your own. Time to ante up or quit criticizing.

 

This is a rather long post which may add some clarity to the discussion but then again it may not. It is all in the view of the reader.

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ, who is God the Son.


Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9].


Union with Jesus Christ

Union with Jesus Christ is an integral part, a condition, of God’s electing grace and this union is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit.


Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. The regenerate do, the unregenerate do not.


Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration. Saving faith and repentance are essential aspects of conversion.


Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that God is and that he has sinned against God.


Pardon

A righteous God cannot overlook sin for the wages of sin is death [Romans 6.23]. Man is not a sinner because he sins but man sins because he is a sinner. As such he is subject to the wrath of God [Romans 5:12, Romans 1:18]. All who exercise God given repentance obtain forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness or pardon implies deliverance from the penalty of sin.


Justification

Justification is a judicial act whereby the unjust sinner is declared righteous in the sight of a just and holy God. John Dagg in his Manuel of Theology [page 265] notes that justification is a higher blessing of grace than pardon. Pardon frees from the penalty that follows sin, justification frees us from the guilt of sin. Justification is by faith alone [Romans 5:1] and that faith itself is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9].


Adoption

God adopts as sons all who believe in Jesus Christ [Galatians 3:26, 1 John 3:1, Romans 8:16,17]. Although we are called the sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ this does not mean that we occupy the same position relative to God the Father as Jesus Christ [John 10:30-33, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:5-10]. When God the Son took upon Himself the form of man He laid aside His Glory but not His Deity. Though we are called the sons of God by adoption we will never be divine.


Sanctification

The Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom He has regenerated and finally prepares them fully for the service and enjoyment of life in the presence of God.


Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 272] expresses this doctrine in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).


Assurance of Salvation

If we do not believe that True Believer’s are kept by the power of God and will persevere to the end it is doubtful that we can ever have any assurance of our salvation. Therefore, every passage of Scripture that demonstrates the security of the believer should provide the believer assurance of that security. The first basis for assurance is the testimony of the Word of God. The second basis for assurance of salvation is subjective. The Apostle John tells us [1 John 5:10]: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. That witness is the indwelling Holy Spirit


Glorification

God will bring to glory those He has saved through the sacrifice of His Son. Glorification is the final facet on the gem of salvation. Redemption is complete, the sin struggle is over. We who are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17] will be like Him for we will see Him as He is [1 John 3:2].

 

Their being born again results (instantaneously) in their having faith. It is a cause of their faith. "Begotten again TO a living hope."

Let me ask again: Where do you find any scripture at all that says we are born again AS A RESULT OF having faith? You seem to assume it's obvious, so you ought to be able to show it from scripture, right? </font>[/QUOTE]The instant the proverbial light goes on in ones head regarding Jesus, that one is Born Again / Regenerated if you will. From that point faith grows so long as it is nourished with the Word of God. If it receives no nourishment, it dies, and the one who loses it to death, also loses his/her eternal life. Though God may allow them to hear again and believe again. But if they slip from this natural life through death, not having faith in God. they are the ones spoken of in Revelation 20:15 who are judged and cast into the lake of fire because their names are not found in the book of life.

 

Their being born again results (instantaneously) in their having faith. It is a cause of their faith. "Begotten again TO a living hope."

Let me ask again: Where do you find any scripture at all that says we are born again AS A RESULT OF having faith? You seem to assume it's obvious, so you ought to be able to show it from scripture, right? </font>[/QUOTE]The instant the proverbial light goes on in ones head regarding Jesus, that one is Born Again / Regenerated if you will. From that point faith grows so long as it is nourished with the Word of God. If it receives no nourishment, it dies, and the one who loses it to death, also loses his/her eternal life. Though God may allow them to hear again and believe again. But if they slip from this natural life through death, not having faith in God. they are the ones spoken of in Revelation 20:15 who are judged and cast into the lake of fire because their names are not found in the book of life. </font>[/QUOTE]All this time I thought that man invented the eraser to eliminate his mistakes but; according to Wes, Outwest; it turns out that God has one also????

Actually there is logic to Wes' madness. If salvation is the work of man, and not God, then it is man who must strive to keep it. As the saying goes: Use it or lose it.

However, that being said, I prefer to believe that Salvation is by the Sovereign Grace of God and He will keep those He has chosen unto Salvation in Jesus Christ.

Philip Edgcumbe Hughes, an Anglican clergyman, in his commentary on Revelation writes [page 57] very eloquently and convincingly on this truth, as follows:

“The book of life, in which are written the names of those to whom the grace of eternal life has been given, symbolizes the truth that the names of His elect whom He has redeemed are all known to the Lord and that their persons are cherished by Him. Christ counseled the seventy who had returned from their mission with joy because even the demons were subject to them in His name: do not rejoice that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven [Luke 10:17-20]. In a similar way the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven [Hebrews. 12:23].

It would be altogether wrong to imagine an activity of constant book-keeping in heaven, involving not only the registration of new names but also the removal of names previously entered and the restoration of names previously removed. Such a conception could only be conducive to insecurity on the part of God’s people [whose names might be in His book today and out tomorrow] and to uncertainty even in the mind of God Himself regarding the outcome of His redemptive action, which is unthinkable.

It is precisely everyone whose name had not been written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world who worships the beast [Revelation 13:8]; whereas the Good Shepherd says of His sheep: I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand [John 10:28]. As those who have been chosen in him before the foundation of the world [Ephesians. 1:4] their inheritance reserved in heaven for them is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading [1 Peter. 1:4]. Were this not so the eternal life possessed by the redeemed [John 3:16, 5:25, etc.] could turn out to be not eternal life after all but only for the time being, dependent on man rather than God, with the consequences that the promises of God would be open to falsification, which again is unthinkable.”

 

Hi Russel55;

Then why do Calvinist claim they are first saved? Regeneration is being saved. You skip the condition and go right to the fact of Salvation claiming you have to in order to have faith. Not true according to the Act 16:31.

Then you need to learn what regeneration means it means to be bornagain and this means delieverd. So how can one be delieverd with out faith?

The Greek definition of regeneration spells out Salvation. Being born again is Salvation because it means to be delieverd.

Then you can't believe regeneration preceeds faith it's completely unscriptural.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Jumping to conclusions OldRegular? Where has wes ever stated that salvation is by man?

To set the record straight Salvation of man is entirely of God! However, God Did all the work but man must still believe! God does not make man believe! God gives all the reasons man should believe, and All the things man can believe in for salvation. But it remains man who must believe of his own will!

Consider the parable of the wedding where the bridegrooms father sent out invitations to all his "friends" (elect of God), but they all begged off with excuses, so God sent his servants to the streets and byways to invite any and all who would dress themselves in appropriate attire and come to the wedding feast. One came who was not properly attired and was cast out by the Father of the Bridegroom. That appropriate attire is described throughout scripture as FAITH! Abraham had it, Noah, had it, etc., etc. Cleanse your robes through confession of sin and washing them in the Blood of the Lamb. Those are things that man must do to be acceptable before the Father.

You do know that we do not have salvation while living this natural life don't you? All we have is the promise of Eternal life (salvation). We do not have it, except through our faith in God.

 

They don't. Read the thread.

No, regeneration is specific part of being saved. Read the thread.

Nope. Salvation is conditional. Conditioned on faith. Read the thread.

Regeneration means to be born again, right!

One verse that says this and I'll buy it.

They aren't.

No it doesn't. Look it up in a lexicon.

And then also notice that scripture tells us we are saved by regeneration and renewal. If the word regeneration is used by the writers of scripture as something through which salvation is worked, the salvation CAN'T be the definition of regeneration, can it?

I gave scriptural support. Three or four passages of scripture, I think, that suggest that regeneration brings faith. Did you read them?

This is three or four more passages of scriptural support, BTW, than I've seen for the idea that faith brings regeneration. If the idea that faith brings regeneration is so scriptural, why has no one come up with any scriptural support?

Lots of bravado, I've yet to see any weapons.

 

Yes, everyone that I know of holds to this. I don't know anyone who denies it.

I think Russell is doing a fine job of interacting with you on that. I won't jumpt in. What she says is pretty much what I would say.

No it doesn't. YOur thread title was about being born again twice. Calvinists only believe we are born again once.

 

Now this just isn't true you have referred to me as a Arminian. You have accused me of lying You have accused and accused and accused Just more false accusations.</font>[/QUOTE]And none of those are misrepresentations. They are all factually true ...

Yeah right by one who admits that He never has read the institutes of Christianity by John Calvin. It's intresting you know so much about it with out reading and studying the basics. It sure didn't come from scripture </font>[/QUOTE]You still labor under the fundamental misunderstanding that Calvinism started with Calvin. It didn't. It is rooted in Scripture and to be a Calvinist, all one needs to do is read Scripture. Only by denying the meaning of Scripture can one avoid Calvinism.

ACtually, I technically don't, which I already poitne dout. But I don't quibble about it.

No one disputed that that I am aware of.

Where did you prove this? I missed it ...

I think I have read everything you had said. I imagine I read it and recognized it as a failure to prove what you thought it did.

I have never admitted to any dishonesty. You seem to be loosing it Larry</font>[/QUOTE]Yes you did. In this thread, you said Calvin and Augustine never read the Bible, and then later admitted that they did read it, just not all the way through. That was an admission that your first statement was dishonest.

 

ROFL. LOL. Augustine read a good deal of the Bible, yup. Pretty sure, yup. And Calvin did too.

 

Margo;

Were you there?
It's obvious that neither one ever took scripture seriously. They formed there own opinions about it instead of following God's plan.
May Christ Shine His Light On us all;
Mike

 

That's a lie, Mike. It is not obvious that neither one ever took Scripture seriously. That is a foolish statement to make, if for no other reason than that it is unprovable. Something that is unprovable cannot be obvious. Furthermore, it simply isn't true on its face. Calvin took Scripture very seriously, and wrote volumes on it.

 

Jumping to conclusions OldRegular? Where has wes ever stated that salvation is by man?

To set the record straight Salvation of man is entirely of God! However, God Did all the work but man must still believe! God does not make man believe! God gives all the reasons man should believe, and All the things man can believe in for salvation. But it remains man who must believe of his own will!

</font>[/QUOTE]By this logic salvation is of man not God. Man makes the choice, not God.

 

Still waiting for those who said the idea that regeneration precedes faith is unscriptural to come up with supporting scriptural evidence for their accusation. It's easy enough to make accusations, but if you can't back them up, it's just swaggering bluster.

So why not back up the big bluff? You could do it by finding scripture that says that faith precedes (or causes or leads to) regeneration (or being born again). Or you could do it by finding scripture that says that regeneration (or being born again) follows (or comes out of or is caused by) faith. Or you could do that by finding scripture that says that regeneration (or being born again) is the same thing as salvation.

If you can't back up your accusations, then it seems to me the accusation ought to be withdrawn.

Not holding my breath.....

 

Jumping to conclusions OldRegular? Where has wes ever stated that salvation is by man?

To set the record straight Salvation of man is entirely of God! However, God Did all the work but man must still believe! God does not make man believe! God gives all the reasons man should believe, and All the things man can believe in for salvation. But it remains man who must believe of his own will!

</font>[/QUOTE]By this logic salvation is of man not God. Man makes the choice, not God. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely! Man must choose to believe whether you like it or not! If you believe, it is by your choice alone and it is based on what you know (hearing)!

 

I did. You responded:

If I could only use those scriptures to support regeneration being the logical cause of faith by ignoring the rest of Scripture, show me from the rest of scripture that faith is the logical cause of regeneration.

You're the one who claimed I was ignoring the rest of scripture. Prove that claim wasn't just blowing smoke; back up your bluff or retract it!