Does Calvinism teach that we are born-again TWICE!

Jumping to conclusions OldRegular? Where has wes ever stated that salvation is by man?

To set the record straight Salvation of man is entirely of God! However, God Did all the work but man must still believe! God does not make man believe! God gives all the reasons man should believe, and All the things man can believe in for salvation. But it remains man who must believe of his own will!

</font>[/QUOTE]By this logic salvation is of man not God. Man makes the choice, not God. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely! Man must choose to believe whether you like it or not! If you believe, it is by your choice alone and it is based on what you know (hearing)! </font>[/QUOTE]You see WES I didn't jump to conclusions. We have cleared up the fact that you believe salvation is of man, not God.

[ April 09, 2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: OldRegular ]

 

Why don't begin and show us some Scriptures that do teach that regeneration precedes faith? </font>[/QUOTE]Ephesians 2:1-10 [NASB]

1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Please notice that in Verses 4-6 God made those who were dead in transgressions alive. That is what is called being "born again" or regeneration. Also note that it proceeds the faith mentioned in Verse 8 which faith is itself the gift of God.

If only people would let Scripture speak they would be amazed at what they might learn.

 

NO sir, You have merely made a false accusation!

How man time do I have to post this":

God has done ALL the work regarding man's salvation!

Grace is not what saves man, God, the who, does it.

God does not save the unwilling! Therefore HE does not save those who do not believe in Him, that is, have faith in Him.

God does not force one to believe in Him. Man either believes or does not believe with his own spirit! There is no coersion on God's part, only persuasion.

Man is not an unwilling "victim" of God's 'regenerative charm'. Man must choose to believe in his own mind. If this were not true, we would not have a History of the failures of the Jew's as recorded in the OLD TESTAMENT!

Yes, God did cause catastrophe to befall the Jews on numerous occasions, but he did not "regenerate" the individual Jew, ALL of whom have been God's chosen race from the earliest times. The things that befell the Jews, befell the nation of Israel, not the individuals because there were both "the devout" among "the rebellious"...God dealt with the nation, hence, both the devout and the rebellious alike.

 

NO sir, You have merely made a false accusation!

How man time do I have to post this":

God has done ALL the work regarding man's salvation!

Grace is not what saves man, God, the who, does it.

God does not save the unwilling! Therefore HE does not save those who do not believe in Him, that is, have faith in Him.

God does not force one to believe in Him. Man either believes or does not believe with his own spirit! There is no coersion on God's part, only persuasion.

Man is not an unwilling "victim" of God's 'regenerative charm'. Man must choose to believe in his own mind. If this were not true, we would not have a History of the failures of the Jew's as recorded in the OLD TESTAMENT!

Yes, God did cause catastrophe to befall the Jews on numerous occasions, but he did not "regenerate" the individual Jew, ALL of whom have been God's chosen race from the earliest times. The things that befell the Jews, befell the nation of Israel, not the individuals because there were both "the devout" among "the rebellious"...God dealt with the nation, hence, both the devout and the rebellious alike. </font>[/QUOTE]I suggest you reread your post of 12:17 PM. I stated earlier: By this logic salvation is of man not God. Man makes the choice, not God.

You responded in your post of 12:17 PM: Absolutely! Man must choose to believe whether you like it or not! If you believe, it is by your choice alone and it is based on what you know (hearing)!

How am I to know what you believe?

In case you don't understand yet it is regeneration that changes the natural man, the unwilling, into the willing.

John Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

“Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

 

You continue to refute the truth of scripture with the dogma of man! You are worse off than I!

You believe what is believable of course, you do so in every other aspect of life why not your spiritual life? Why is that a problem?

Regarding Regeneration, Peter tells us,

Peter says that Regeneration has its source in the word of God! Yet you say that regeneration must come before man is able to hear the word of God.

I'm afraid sir that you are not trustworthy. And it seems that Mr. Dagg is also untrustworthy.

 

Peter says that Regeneration has its source in the word of God! Yet you say that regeneration must come before man is able to hear the word of God.

I'm afraid sir that you are not trustworthy. And it seems that Mr. Dagg is also untrustworthy. </font>[/QUOTE]Why is it that people who profess to follow Jesus Christ cannot discuss Scripture without slandering anyone who disagrees with them? You are apparently not familiar with John Dagg yet you have no problem slandering him.

As for your quote from Peter I believe that you misunderstand what he is saying. The Apostle Peter states for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God.

I refer you to John 1:1, 14; Revelation 19:13.

John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Revelation 19:13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Jesus Christ, God the Son, in whom all the fullness of the Godhead dwells [Colossians 2:9] is the living and enduring Word. It is through the Holy Spirit that the Triune God regenerates his elect and gives them the faith to believe. That is precisely what Peter is teaching.

Please note that I have not slandered you in any way. However, I would appreciate you answering one question for me: Are you dispensationalist as well as Arminian?

 

There you go again WES, OUTWEST. It is not me who claims that regeneration must occur before man is able to hear the Word of God. Anyone who listens can hear the word of God. It is Scripture that teaches that the natural or unregenerate man cannot savingly respond to the Word of God. The Apostle Paul tells us in 1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/b]

This truth is vividly demonstrated in the parable of the sower [Matthew 13:3-9; 18-23.

3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
5. Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6. And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
8. But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Please notice verse 9: Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. In the explanation of the parable we will find out who had ears to HEAR.

18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

He that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it. This is the one who has been previously regenerated by the Holy Spirit [Ephesians 2;1-10].

 

Hi Oldregular;

You refference 1st Cor 2:14 to tell us man cannot know the gospel. The gospel isn't the deep things of God. It is a simple message that even little Children can understand.
The deep things of God are revealed by the Spirit and this is what verse 14 is speaking about.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Verse 14 doesn't support Calvinism's claim.
Deep things are the more complicated things of God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi Old regular;

There are very few of us who have no ears and right here the Lord says let them hear. Yet you say they must be regenerated first for what don't they have ears? And didn't Christ say let them hear.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

What Is untrustworthy is what you posted from Dagg, if that is an indication of who he is, then my comment stands. Same with you.

I know full well what Peter is saying and offer that in the book of John which reputedly contains the words of Jesus, the words "believe", "believeth", and "belief" appear 84 times. In each occurrence Jesus is saying that man must believe. You will also notice that during the time that Jesus was on the earth walking among men, the Holy Spirit had not come to man, generally speaking, and that doesn't occur until after Jesus ascends to the right hand of the father. YET! men heard "The Word" and believed! No prior regeneration. No I am not speaking of the Apostles alone, but look at the multitudes that followed Jesus, not fully understanding but believing that He, Jesus, had something different. Many more than the Apostles believed in Jesus, before the Holy Spirit came. Lazarus is one example of one who believed in Jesus without the benefit of the Holy Spirit. The women who were not Apostles but who also believed, some even more greatly than the apostles themselves. Nicodemus is believed to have believed in Jesus before Jesus was crucified. Joseph of Arimathaea, though not openly for fear of reprisal, and many others.

Yes, I accept those scriptures, and refer you to John 1:1 through John 21:25, where that LIVING WORD tells us to believe in him, and be saved. I do!

Ya know, OldRegular, I would apologize, for calling you untrustworthy, but you turn right around and call me Arminian. I am not Arminian, nor am I Pelagian, nor am I Calvinist, nor am I Catholic, nor am I Baptist though I attend a Baptist church.

I am Christian, No hyphen, no modifiers of any kind, "Christian". It really irritates me when people who should know better deliberately try to pigeonhole me into one of their neat little categories. It is that very thing that small minded people do that has factionalized the CHRIST'S church. People who do pigeonhole others are FACTIONALISTS, dividers if you will! And they are not to be trusted. If you are doing that you are untrustworthy! And since you brought Dagg into this, if you are not trustworthy then perhaps Dagg is likewise not trustworthy. By the way, Trustworthiness is not a pigeonhole, it is a condition of being!

 

OldRegular,

Oh, you didn't receive the memo?
Let me tell you what it says,
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are the Gospels, they are the writings by which this generation of man hears about Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, The Living Word, and from which we learn the Gospel message which takes one from unbeliever to believer, from Non-Christian to Christian.

The second half of the memo says that Paul's writings and those of Peter and James, and of course Luke (Acts of the Apostles) and John (1,2,& 3 John and Revelation) and wonderful Jude are Believer Training Material (BTM). They teach us believers how to live the Christian Life!

So, friend, If I were you, for the Born again, Regenerational experience, I'd trust the Gospels, For Christian living, Paul seems to be the Go-To-Guy, with great support from James, John, Jude, and our beloved Peter. And for General Religious training, include the whole of the Old Testament.

 

You refference 1st Cor 2:14 to tell us man cannot know the gospel. The gospel isn't the deep things of God. It is a simple message that even little Children can understand.
The deep things of God are revealed by the Spirit and this is what verse 14 is speaking about.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Verse 14 doesn't support Calvinism's claim.
Deep things are the more complicated things of God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]1Corinthians 2:14 says nothing about the deep things of God. It simply states But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. The natural man is the unregenerate man.

 

OleRegular,

.Seems like you are making a statement of your personal belief, based on a tenet of Calvinism. (parens are mine)

Where is "Regeneration before faith" in these 10 verses? Where is "election" before faith?

 

There are very few of us who have no ears and right here the Lord says let them hear. Yet you say they must be regenerated first for what don't they have ears? And didn't Christ say let them hear.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]You conveniently ignore the explanation of the parable:

In the explanation of the parable we will find out who had ears to HEAR.

18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

All four heard the Word. Only one heard and understood. That was the one of which Jesus Christ said: He that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it. This is the one who has been previously regenerated by the Holy Spirit [Ephesians 2;1-10]. The remaining three heard with the "natural mind" of whom Paul spoke in 1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

Oh, you didn't receive the memo?
Let me tell you what it says,
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, are the Gospels, they are the writings by which this generation of man hears about Jesus, the Son of God, the Christ, The Living Word, and from which we learn the Gospel message which takes one from unbeliever to believer, from Non-Christian to Christian.

The second half of the memo says that Paul's writings and those of Peter and James, and of course Luke (Acts of the Apostles) and John (1,2,& 3 John and Revelation) and wonderful Jude are Believer Training Material (BTM). They teach us believers how to live the Christian Life!

So, friend, If I were you, for the Born again, Regenerational experience, I'd trust the Gospels, For Christian living, Paul seems to be the Go-To-Guy, with great support from James, John, Jude, and our beloved Peter. And for General Religious training, include the whole of the Old Testament. [/b]</font>[/QUOTE]Is your above response what you call "rightly dividing the Word of truth"? [2 Timothy 2:15]

 

Well, yes!

Prove me wrong!

 

Where is "Regeneration before faith" in these 10 verses? Where is "election" before faith? </font>[/QUOTE]Is this the WES, OUTWEST paraphrase? If so you have added some erroneous statements. I show the passage first from the KJV and then the NASB:

Ephesians 2:1-10 [KJV]
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:1-10 [NASB]
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9. not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

In your paraphrase verses 4 and 5 you add some words which don't appear in either the KJV or the NASB as noted below:

Scripture quoted above from the KJV and NASB simply states that God made us alive when we were dead in our transgressions [NASB] or sins[KJV]. It does not say he made us alive ( By hearing the Word) as you contend.

 

Appears to me they are saying the same thing! So what's your beef?

I told you that the parens are mine, did I not?

 

Hi Oldregular;
Even the hard ground received the gospel. They heard it and received it in order to receive it they have to hear it. Those that sprouted up among the thorns also received it or they would not have sprouted up. Because they didn't continue, had nothing to do with there ability to hear.
I think the reason Christ used this parable is that the seed has with in it life. It has to have contact with the ground to grow. No Hearing no growth. the reason the seed failed is lack of nourishment
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike