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Does False Teaching Really Matter?

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
According to at least one widely held Christian view, it does not matter whether the gospel is presented accurately or not, no human being is able to respond to it appropriately anyway; as everyone in their natural fallen state suffers from total spiritual inability.

Then, again according to this widely held view, only those individuals that were preselected before creation to be saved are altered supernaturally by irresistible grace, such that they come to Christ. In such a scheme, the message does not matter, only whether or not God chose the foreseen individual for salvation.

Paul drives an alternate view home in Philippians 1:15-18. Paul says it does not matter if you hear Christ proclaimed from a person motivated by compassion and good will or from a wolf in sheep's clothing, because the message is everything.

In Matthew 23:13 we read where folks have responded to the message and are actually in the process of entering heaven when they are blocked by false teachers. So either the folks had some spiritual ability or they had received "irresistible grace" but then the grace could not have been irresistible for they were blocked.

Bottom line, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

Beware of False Teachers


Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits....

2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.

Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.

Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.​

Clearly then, the gospel of Christ can be corrupted by the traditions of men, and the results can prevent folks from entering heaven. So we should stick with what the Bible says, and not add stuff never mentioned in the Bible, such as the folks of Matthew 23:13 entered heaven later. We are to believe what it says, not believe in things not said. Extrapolations based on logical necessity are fine, but saying one of a number of possible extrapolations is doctrine is unsound.

Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace seem to me to be unsound doctrines that present the traditions of men, rather than God's doctrine of Matthew 23:13.

Limited Atonement, as defined by Calvinism, is another apparent unsound doctrine. Note that 1 Peter 2:1 says the false teachers were bought, teaching even those never saved were purchased by Christ, rather than only those foreseen individuals supposedly chosen before creation.

Christians should stick with what they first believed in, "for God so loved the world (all of mankind) that He gave His uniquely divine Son so that whoever (and God has not foreordained who can believe) believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The Bible teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, they can discern God from what He has made, but by the practice of sin, they can harden their hearts so they are unable to understand the gospel, like the first of the four soils of Matthew 13. Therefore, I believe the doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability" misstates the gospel.

The doctrine of Unconditional Election before Creation also misstates the gospel in my opinion. God chooses indeividuals during their lives after they have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10) based on crediting their faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5). Biblical Election is presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God has chosen folks from the beginning of the New Covenant, through sanctification by the Spirit - God sets them apart when He spiritually places them "in [into] Christ,” based on knowledge of the Truth - our faith in Christ. Limited Atonement flies in the face of Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where folks who are entering heaven, thus under the influence of the supposed irresistible grace, are turned aside by false teachers.

In summary, the New Testament teaches Limited Spiritual Ability that can be lost, Conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, the means of Reconciliation provided for the world, all mankind, and the grace of God's revelation, which can be accepted or rejected.

I believe these extrapolated views lead folks away from the simplicity of sound doctrine presented by Christ – whoever believes into Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. And the impact of that can be observed when we are confronted by Atheists. They often cite the unsound doctrines as reasons they have rejected Christianity.

In the 1890’s a scholar evaluating 2000 year old paper, found in an Egyptian dump, discovered that the language of the common man, found in everyday correspondence, was the same language used in the New Testament. Thus it was written for the common man in a language they could understand. And the lesson we should draw is that our message should be clear, putting forth the simplicity of the message and not shrouded in layers of theology.

If the widely held view is true, then false teachers do not matter. But if false teachers result in fewer people coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, as Matthew 23:13 says, then parts of the widely held are mistaken. According to Matthew 23:13, folks presenting false teachings do not allow those who are entering to go in to the kingdom.

Does False Teaching matter? The answer from scripture is yes.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
According to at least one widely held Christian view, it does not matter whether the gospel is presented accurately or not, no human being is able to respond to it appropriately anyway; as everyone in their natural fallen state suffers from total spiritual inability.

Then, again according to this widely held view, only those individuals that were preselected before creation to be saved are altered supernaturally by irresistible grace, such that they come to Christ. In such a scheme, the message does not matter, only whether or not God chose the foreseen individual for salvation.

Paul drives an alternate view home in Philippians 1:15-18. Paul says it does not matter if you hear Christ proclaimed from a person motivated by compassion and good will or from a wolf in sheep's clothing, because the message is everything.

In Matthew 23:13 we read where folks have responded to the message and are actually in the process of entering heaven when they are blocked by false teachers. So either the folks had some spiritual ability or they had received "irresistible grace" but then the grace could not have been irresistible for they were blocked.

Bottom line, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

Beware of False Teachers



Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits....


2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.


Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.


Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.


2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;


Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.


Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Clearly then, the gospel of Christ can be corrupted by the traditions of men, and the results can prevent folks from entering heaven. So we should stick with what the Bible says, and not add stuff never mentioned in the Bible, such as the folks of Matthew 23:13 entered heaven later. We are to believe what it says, not believe in things not said. Extrapolations based on logical necessity are fine, but saying one of a number of possible extrapolations is doctrine is unsound.

Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace seem to me to be unsound doctrines that present the traditions of men, rather than God's doctrine of Matthew 23:13.

Limited Atonement, as defined by Calvinism, is another apparent unsound doctrine. Note that 1 Peter 2:1 says the false teachers were bought, teaching even those never saved were purchased by Christ, rather than only those foreseen individuals supposedly chosen before creation.

Christians should stick with what they first believed in, "for God so loved the world (all of mankind) that He gave His uniquely divine Son so that whoever (and God has not foreordained who can believe) believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The Bible teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, they can discern God from what He has made, but by the practice of sin, they can harden their hearts so they are unable to understand the gospel, like the first of the four soils of Matthew 13. Therefore, I believe the doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability" misstates the gospel.

The doctrine of Unconditional Election before Creation also misstates the gospel in my opinion. God chooses indeividuals during their lives after they have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10) based on crediting their faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5). Biblical Election is presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God has chosen folks from the beginning of the New Covenant, through sanctification by the Spirit - God sets them apart when He spiritually places them "in [into] Christ,” based on knowledge of the Truth - our faith in Christ. Limited Atonement flies in the face of Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where folks who are entering heaven, thus under the influence of the supposed irresistible grace, are turned aside by false teachers.

In summary, the New Testament teaches Limited Spiritual Ability that can be lost, Conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, the means of Reconciliation provided for the world, all mankind, and the grace of God's revelation, which can be accepted or rejected.

I believe these extrapolated views lead folks away from the simplicity of sound doctrine presented by Christ – whoever believes into Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. And the impact of that can be observed when we are confronted by Atheists. They often cite the unsound doctrines as reasons they have rejected Christianity.

In the 1890’s a scholar evaluating 2000 year old paper, found in an Egyptian dump, discovered that the language of the common man, found in everyday correspondence, was the same language used in the New Testament. Thus it was written for the common man in a language they could understand. And the lesson we should draw is that our message should be clear, putting forth the simplicity of the message and not shrouded in layers of theology.

If the widely held view is true, then false teachers do not matter. But if false teachers result in fewer people coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, as Matthew 23:13 says, then parts of the widely held are mistaken. According to Matthew 23:13, folks presenting false teachings do not allow those who are entering to go in to the kingdom.

Does False Teaching matter? The answer from scripture is yes.
Supreme irony is that you are the dictionary example of one holding to false teachings
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
According to at least one widely held Christian view, it does not matter whether the gospel is presented accurately or not, no human being is able to respond to it appropriately anyway; as everyone in their natural fallen state suffers from total spiritual inability.

Then, again according to this widely held view, only those individuals that were preselected before creation to be saved are altered supernaturally by irresistible grace, such that they come to Christ. In such a scheme, the message does not matter, only whether or not God chose the foreseen individual for salvation.
You seem to be suggesting that people who believe that God chose before the foundation of the world whom He would save, that His grace is irresistible, and so on, don't care about false teaching. That just is not so.
 

Aaron

Member
Site Supporter
According to at least one widely held Christian view, it does not matter whether the gospel is presented accurately or not, no human being is able to respond to it appropriately anyway; as everyone in their natural fallen state suffers from total spiritual inability.

Then, again according to this widely held view, only those individuals that were preselected before creation to be saved are altered supernaturally by irresistible grace, such that they come to Christ. In such a scheme, the message does not matter, only whether or not God chose the foreseen individual for salvation.

Paul drives an alternate view home in Philippians 1:15-18. Paul says it does not matter if you hear Christ proclaimed from a person motivated by compassion and good will or from a wolf in sheep's clothing, because the message is everything.

In Matthew 23:13 we read where folks have responded to the message and are actually in the process of entering heaven when they are blocked by false teachers. So either the folks had some spiritual ability or they had received "irresistible grace" but then the grace could not have been irresistible for they were blocked.

Bottom line, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

Beware of False Teachers



Matthew 7:15,16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits....


2 Timothy 4:3,4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth , and be turned aside to fables.


Acts 20:29-31 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves . Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.


Matthew 15:9 And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.


2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


2 Peter 3:16,17 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;


Colossians 2:8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.


Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Clearly then, the gospel of Christ can be corrupted by the traditions of men, and the results can prevent folks from entering heaven. So we should stick with what the Bible says, and not add stuff never mentioned in the Bible, such as the folks of Matthew 23:13 entered heaven later. We are to believe what it says, not believe in things not said. Extrapolations based on logical necessity are fine, but saying one of a number of possible extrapolations is doctrine is unsound.

Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace seem to me to be unsound doctrines that present the traditions of men, rather than God's doctrine of Matthew 23:13.

Limited Atonement, as defined by Calvinism, is another apparent unsound doctrine. Note that 1 Peter 2:1 says the false teachers were bought, teaching even those never saved were purchased by Christ, rather than only those foreseen individuals supposedly chosen before creation.

Christians should stick with what they first believed in, "for God so loved the world (all of mankind) that He gave His uniquely divine Son so that whoever (and God has not foreordained who can believe) believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

The Bible teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, they can discern God from what He has made, but by the practice of sin, they can harden their hearts so they are unable to understand the gospel, like the first of the four soils of Matthew 13. Therefore, I believe the doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability" misstates the gospel.

The doctrine of Unconditional Election before Creation also misstates the gospel in my opinion. God chooses indeividuals during their lives after they have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10) based on crediting their faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5). Biblical Election is presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God has chosen folks from the beginning of the New Covenant, through sanctification by the Spirit - God sets them apart when He spiritually places them "in [into] Christ,” based on knowledge of the Truth - our faith in Christ. Limited Atonement flies in the face of Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where folks who are entering heaven, thus under the influence of the supposed irresistible grace, are turned aside by false teachers.

In summary, the New Testament teaches Limited Spiritual Ability that can be lost, Conditional election based on God crediting our faith as righteousness, the means of Reconciliation provided for the world, all mankind, and the grace of God's revelation, which can be accepted or rejected.

I believe these extrapolated views lead folks away from the simplicity of sound doctrine presented by Christ – whoever believes into Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. And the impact of that can be observed when we are confronted by Atheists. They often cite the unsound doctrines as reasons they have rejected Christianity.

In the 1890’s a scholar evaluating 2000 year old paper, found in an Egyptian dump, discovered that the language of the common man, found in everyday correspondence, was the same language used in the New Testament. Thus it was written for the common man in a language they could understand. And the lesson we should draw is that our message should be clear, putting forth the simplicity of the message and not shrouded in layers of theology.

If the widely held view is true, then false teachers do not matter. But if false teachers result in fewer people coming to a saving knowledge of Christ, as Matthew 23:13 says, then parts of the widely held are mistaken. According to Matthew 23:13, folks presenting false teachings do not allow those who are entering to go in to the kingdom.

Does False Teaching matter? The answer from scripture is yes.
You need to keep in mind that it's a Person that saves, not a teaching.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus...

We don't confess a teaching, we confess a Person.


Now, are you suggesting that all the notions you entertain about that Person are free of error?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Supreme irony is that you are the dictionary example of one holding to false teachings
Ad homenim response, demonstrating biblical illiteracy. Nothing was actually addressed, let alone rebutted. But the ol "reverse the charges" ploy of false teachers is evident, where I am charged with their malfeasance. Go figure.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You seem to be suggesting that people who believe that God chose before the foundation of the world whom He would save, that His grace is irresistible, and so on, don't care about false teaching. That just is not so.
LOL, did I even address whether or not those holding and advocating false doctrines care about false teaching? Nope - so a strawman hoisted to change the subject. So typical of those unwilling or unable to defend their doctrines which are obviously false.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You need to keep in mind that it's a Person that saves, not a teaching.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus...

We don't confess a teaching, we confess a Person.


Now, are you suggesting that all the notions you entertain about that Person are free of error?
Once again we see a change the subject post. Did I not say Jesus Christ saves? Yes of course I did.

Christians should stick with what they first believed in, "for God so loved the world (all of mankind) that He gave His uniquely divine Son so that whoever (and God has not foreordained who can believe) believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
They seem to say the message does not matter, but scripture is clear, we are to present the pure gospel of Christ. They are doubling down on the false doctrine that false teachers and false teaching do not matter.

But if the message is not key, why is it that people entering the kingdom were prevented from going in? Matthew 23:13?
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Have you ever seen someone claim our righteousness is imputed. That of course is the vague phraseology pushing false doctrine. God declares or credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, and so our faith has "imputed" righteousness. But does that cause us to be the righteousness of God? No, of course not. Based on that imputed righteousness, our faith in the truth, God transfers us into Christ's spiritual body, where we undergo the washing of regeneration, and the result is we are "made" the righteousness of God in Him.

Whenever you see some other process claimed to make us "the righteousness of God" the claim is false doctrine. See 2 Corinthians 5:21
 
According to at least one widely held Christian view, it does not matter whether the gospel is presented accurately or not, no human being is able to respond to it appropriately anyway; as everyone in their natural fallen state suffers from total spiritual inability.
I am not sure if I could think of a single person who holds to such a "widely held Christian view!" Perhaps you could cite one or two seeing that such a view is "widely held?"

I understand the absolute importance of proclaiming the gospel message and getting it right! God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor 1:21) and Paul states that if any man preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL than the one he has preached, that they are to be regarded as being accursed (Gal 1:8-9).
Then, again according to this widely held view, only those individuals that were preselected before creation to be saved are altered supernaturally by irresistible grace, such that they come to Christ. In such a scheme, the message does not matter, only whether or not God chose the foreseen individual for salvation.
The message most certainly matters! Paul declares "How shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom 10:14). The scriptures are also clear that God deals with a man through his ability to see and to reason (Come now, let us REASON together... Isa 1:18; And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled... Acts 24:25). Therefore Paul declares that the "invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Rom 1:20). God's general revelation is revealed to every man through his work of creation (Rom 1:20) and the witness of his conscience (Rom 2:12-15) and with this general revelation, every man with a rational mind is thereby rendered without excuse! It is only through the special revelation of the written canon of scripture that a man is made wise unto salvation whereby he may believe (2 Tim 3:15; 1 Pet 1:23).

God uses man's ability to reason and rationalize in order to reveal himself to mankind. We are commanded to communicate the gospel message with this in mind. What we (those who proclaim the gospel) cannot do is intellectually "persuade" a man to trust Christ. This is solely God's doing and most would agree with this whether they were on the Calvinist or Arminian side of the argument (1 Cor 3:6-7). We understand our salvation to be a "New Birth" and therefore a spiritual and supernatural event. What we understand about our birth is that no man asks to be "Born" but all who are born want to live. The so-called "Irresistable Grace" of Calvinism is efficacious grace whereby one is saved (Regeneration).
Paul drives an alternate view home in Philippians 1:15-18. Paul says it does not matter if you hear Christ proclaimed from a person motivated by compassion and good will or from a wolf in sheep's clothing, because the message is everything.
Absolutely! Adolph Hitler could proclaim the gospel and if he had done so, it would have been sufficient to make one wise unto salvation.
In Matthew 23:13 we read where folks have responded to the message and are actually in the process of entering heaven when they are blocked by false teachers. So either the folks had some spiritual ability or they had received "irresistible grace" but then the grace could not have been irresistible for they were blocked.
Scriptures speak of the "god of this world blinding the minds of those who believe not" (2 Cor 4:4) but the scriptures also state that men are taken away captive by him at his will (2 Tim 2:26) so by no means is man's responsibility ever diminished!
Bottom line, the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation.
Amen! No disagreement from me here.
Clearly then, the gospel of Christ can be corrupted by the traditions of men, and the results can prevent folks from entering heaven. So we should stick with what the Bible says, and not add stuff never mentioned in the Bible, such as the folks of Matthew 23:13 entered heaven later. We are to believe what it says, not believe in things not said. Extrapolations based on logical necessity are fine, but saying one of a number of possible extrapolations is doctrine is unsound.
My sinful actions may give the enemies of God great occasion to blaspheme and the last thing I would ever want to do is bring reproach upon the name of Christ. It does impact the testimony of Christ among the lost but our actions do not send lost people to Hell! Lost people will stand before God accountable for their own unbelief.
Total Spiritual Inability and Irresistible Grace seem to me to be unsound doctrines that present the traditions of men, rather than God's doctrine of Matthew 23:13.
Jesus says "No man CAN come to me except the Father draws him" (Jn 6:44) and we have to deal with this. What should be clear to all is that mankind is predisposed in his natural state to run FROM God and never TOWARDS him. Men love the darkness because their deeds were evil (Jn 3:19) and apart from God's supernatural intervention, we would remain in this state and quite content to do so. Classic Arminians acknowledge this and have a "work-around" they call "prevenient grace" but either way, a "dead man" will never respond to the gospel message in an affirmative manner. We proclaim the gospel anyway peradventure God grants them repentance and faith to believe (2 Tim 2:25).
Limited Atonement, as defined by Calvinism, is another apparent unsound doctrine. Note that 1 Peter 2:1 says the false teachers were bought, teaching even those never saved were purchased by Christ, rather than only those foreseen individuals supposedly chosen before creation.
There are many differing views regarding a "limited atonement" and I do not take a dogmatic stance here. It is my belief that at the Great White Throne judgment, God will hold a lost man accountable for any time he has heard the gospel preached and in order for that man to be guilty, he would've been able to be saved had he actually believed. I would therefore say that the "extent of the atonement is that it is sufficient to save all that believes and renders accountable those who do not." Other Calvinists may disagree with me here but I am not sure that John Calvin would.;)
Christians should stick with what they first believed in, "for God so loved the world (all of mankind) that He gave His uniquely divine Son so that whoever (and God has not foreordained who can believe) believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life."
And I agree! Calvinism never has to come up. I understand as a Calvinist that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and this is how the message of the Gospel should be proclaimed. I do not believe we have to read anything else into "Whosoever" than what whosoever actually means. The gospel is to be proclaimed to "Whosoever" and from there, God will draw his elect to himself.
The Bible teaches the lost have limited spiritual ability, they can discern God from what He has made, but by the practice of sin, they can harden their hearts so they are unable to understand the gospel, like the first of the four soils of Matthew 13. Therefore, I believe the doctrine of "Total Spiritual Inability" misstates the gospel.
We are not "Robots," we are rational beings who will be held accountable for our actions.
The doctrine of Unconditional Election before Creation also misstates the gospel in my opinion. God chooses indeividuals during their lives after they have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10) based on crediting their faith as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5). Biblical Election is presented in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God has chosen folks from the beginning of the New Covenant, through sanctification by the Spirit - God sets them apart when He spiritually places them "in [into] Christ,” based on knowledge of the Truth - our faith in Christ. Limited Atonement flies in the face of Christ being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Irresistible Grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 where folks who are entering heaven, thus under the influence of the supposed irresistible grace, are turned aside by false teachers.
Those who are in Christ have been chosen in him from before the foundation of the world. Before the world began, God saw you in all of your sinful depravity and chose to have mercy on you anyway! We all should stop and meditate on this for a while!
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am not sure if I could think of a single person who holds to such a "widely held Christian view!" Perhaps you could cite one or two seeing that such a view is "widely held?"

I understand the absolute importance of proclaiming the gospel message and getting it right! God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor 1:21) and Paul states that if any man preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL than the one he has preached, that they are to be regarded as being accursed (Gal 1:8-9).

The message most certainly matters! Paul declares "How shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom 10:14). The scriptures are also clear that God deals with a man through his ability to see and to reason (Come now, let us REASON together... Isa 1:18; And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled... Acts 24:25). Therefore Paul declares that the "invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Rom 1:20). God's general revelation is revealed to every man through his work of creation (Rom 1:20) and the witness of his conscience (Rom 2:12-15) and with this general revelation, every man with a rational mind is thereby rendered without excuse! It is only through the special revelation of the written canon of scripture that a man is made wise unto salvation whereby he may believe (2 Tim 3:15; 1 Pet 1:23).

God uses man's ability to reason and rationalize in order to reveal himself to mankind. We are commanded to communicate the gospel message with this in mind. What we (those who proclaim the gospel) cannot do is intellectually "persuade" a man to trust Christ. This is solely God's doing and most would agree with this whether they were on the Calvinist or Arminian side of the argument (1 Cor 3:6-7). We understand our salvation to be a "New Birth" and therefore a spiritual and supernatural event. What we understand about our birth is that no man asks to be "Born" but all who are born want to live. The so-called "Irresistable Grace" of Calvinism is efficacious grace whereby one is saved (Regeneration).

Absolutely! Adolph Hitler could proclaim the gospel and if he had done so, it would have been sufficient to make one wise unto salvation.

Scriptures speak of the "god of this world blinding the minds of those who believe not" (2 Cor 4:4) but the scriptures also state that men are taken away captive by him at his will (2 Tim 2:26) so by no means is man's responsibility ever diminished!

Amen! No disagreement from me here.

My sinful actions may give the enemies of God great occasion to blaspheme and the last thing I would ever want to do is bring reproach upon the name of Christ. It does impact the testimony of Christ among the lost but our actions do not send lost people to Hell! Lost people will stand before God accountable for their own unbelief.

Jesus says "No man CAN come to me except the Father draws him" (Jn 6:44) and we have to deal with this. What should be clear to all is that mankind is predisposed in his natural state to run FROM God and never TOWARDS him. Men love the darkness because their deeds were evil (Jn 3:19) and apart from God's supernatural intervention, we would remain in this state and quite content to do so. Classic Arminians acknowledge this and have a "work-around" they call "prevenient grace" but either way, a "dead man" will never respond to the gospel message in an affirmative manner. We proclaim the gospel anyway peradventure God grants them repentance and faith to believe (2 Tim 2:25).

There are many differing views regarding a "limited atonement" and I do not take a dogmatic stance here. It is my belief that at the Great White Throne judgment, God will hold a lost man accountable for any time he has heard the gospel preached and in order for that man to be guilty, he would've been able to be saved had he actually believed. I would therefore say that the "extent of the atonement is that it is sufficient to save all that believes and renders accountable those who do not." Other Calvinists may disagree with me here but I am not sure that John Calvin would.;)

And I agree! Calvinism never has to come up. I understand as a Calvinist that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and this is how the message of the Gospel should be proclaimed. I do not believe we have to read anything else into "Whosoever" than what whosoever actually means. The gospel is to be proclaimed to "Whosoever" and from there, God will draw his elect to himself.

We are not "Robots," we are rational beings who will be held accountable for our actions.

Those who are in Christ have been chosen in him from before the foundation of the world. Before the world began, God saw you in all of your sinful depravity and chose to have mercy on you anyway! We all should stop and meditate on this for a while!
1) It does not matter if you are unaware of those who claim people are compelled to believe, no matter the message. It is a valid statement.

2) We agree, the message of the gospel must not be "another gospel" that prevents those seeking entry into the kingdom from going in.

3) Yes, if a person embraces false doctrine as truth, then they see "truth" as false doctrine. This how the "god of this world" blinds the minds of those who are perishing.

4) People are captive to their own view of truth, and only by repenting, turning aside from our prior beliefs, can we "come to our senses."

5) If we do not do our best as ambassadors of Christ with the ministry of reconciliation, our actions result in helping to win fewer people for Christ. The effort to shrug our responsibility as our Lord's servants is the result of false doctrine.

6) Yes, we need to understand what John 6:44 is saying! No one can put their trust in the gospel of Christ unless they have been drawn (attracted) by being exposed to the gospel of Christ which teaches God's lovingkindness toward us. No supernatural compulsion is being taught, just common sense.

7) Yes, many of fallen humanity love darkness and run from the light. The problem is to claim all of fallen humanity always runs from the light, that none at any time ever repent, ever come to their senses, ever seek God, and so forth. That view is just another false doctrine.

8) Yes, 2 Timothy 2:25 says God must "allow" the lost to come to repentance. That refers to God choosing NOT to harden their hearts, which would preclude repentance. Again the alternate viewpoint which you claim not to be aware, turns this verse on its head with the bogus interpretation God compels repentance.

9) Your view of "Limited Atonement" is exactly the same as the widely held view! Christ died for all humanity, those to be saved, and those never to be saved. Unless you embrace this view, you embrace false doctrine. 2 Peter 2:1. 1 John 2:2. 1 timothy 2:6.

10) Whoever, in your translation of John 3:16 means everyone. The fly in the buttermilk, is the alternate view falsely claims only those supposedly chosen individually before creation are enabled to believe. That again is false doctrine. Again Matthew 23:13 demonstrates some people believe such that they are entering the kingdom, yet are then prevented from going in by false doctrine.

11) Again you did not address the issue, which is scripture teaches many of the lost are able to believe, soils 2, 3 and 4 of Matthew 13. But of these, most choose not to fully embrace the gospel.

12) Again you ignore the fact we all lived as NOT a people before we were chosen to be a people for His own possession, 1 Peter 2:9-10, holding firm to the false doctrine that denies scripture after scripture. How could we be chosen as those rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5, if we were chosen as foreseen individuals.
 

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if I could think of a single person who holds to such a "widely held Christian view!" Perhaps you could cite one or two seeing that such a view is "widely held?"

I understand the absolute importance of proclaiming the gospel message and getting it right! God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe (1 Cor 1:21) and Paul states that if any man preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL than the one he has preached, that they are to be regarded as being accursed (Gal 1:8-9).

The message most certainly matters! Paul declares "How shall they hear without a preacher?" (Rom 10:14). The scriptures are also clear that God deals with a man through his ability to see and to reason (Come now, let us REASON together... Isa 1:18; And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled... Acts 24:25). Therefore Paul declares that the "invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Rom 1:20). God's general revelation is revealed to every man through his work of creation (Rom 1:20) and the witness of his conscience (Rom 2:12-15) and with this general revelation, every man with a rational mind is thereby rendered without excuse! It is only through the special revelation of the written canon of scripture that a man is made wise unto salvation whereby he may believe (2 Tim 3:15; 1 Pet 1:23).

God uses man's ability to reason and rationalize in order to reveal himself to mankind. We are commanded to communicate the gospel message with this in mind. What we (those who proclaim the gospel) cannot do is intellectually "persuade" a man to trust Christ. This is solely God's doing and most would agree with this whether they were on the Calvinist or Arminian side of the argument (1 Cor 3:6-7). We understand our salvation to be a "New Birth" and therefore a spiritual and supernatural event. What we understand about our birth is that no man asks to be "Born" but all who are born want to live. The so-called "Irresistable Grace" of Calvinism is efficacious grace whereby one is saved (Regeneration).

Absolutely! Adolph Hitler could proclaim the gospel and if he had done so, it would have been sufficient to make one wise unto salvation.

Scriptures speak of the "god of this world blinding the minds of those who believe not" (2 Cor 4:4) but the scriptures also state that men are taken away captive by him at his will (2 Tim 2:26) so by no means is man's responsibility ever diminished!

Amen! No disagreement from me here.

My sinful actions may give the enemies of God great occasion to blaspheme and the last thing I would ever want to do is bring reproach upon the name of Christ. It does impact the testimony of Christ among the lost but our actions do not send lost people to Hell! Lost people will stand before God accountable for their own unbelief.

Jesus says "No man CAN come to me except the Father draws him" (Jn 6:44) and we have to deal with this. What should be clear to all is that mankind is predisposed in his natural state to run FROM God and never TOWARDS him. Men love the darkness because their deeds were evil (Jn 3:19) and apart from God's supernatural intervention, we would remain in this state and quite content to do so. Classic Arminians acknowledge this and have a "work-around" they call "prevenient grace" but either way, a "dead man" will never respond to the gospel message in an affirmative manner. We proclaim the gospel anyway peradventure God grants them repentance and faith to believe (2 Tim 2:25).

There are many differing views regarding a "limited atonement" and I do not take a dogmatic stance here. It is my belief that at the Great White Throne judgment, God will hold a lost man accountable for any time he has heard the gospel preached and in order for that man to be guilty, he would've been able to be saved had he actually believed. I would therefore say that the "extent of the atonement is that it is sufficient to save all that believes and renders accountable those who do not." Other Calvinists may disagree with me here but I am not sure that John Calvin would.;)

And I agree! Calvinism never has to come up. I understand as a Calvinist that "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" and this is how the message of the Gospel should be proclaimed. I do not believe we have to read anything else into "Whosoever" than what whosoever actually means. The gospel is to be proclaimed to "Whosoever" and from there, God will draw his elect to himself.

We are not "Robots," we are rational beings who will be held accountable for our actions.

Those who are in Christ have been chosen in him from before the foundation of the world. Before the world began, God saw you in all of your sinful depravity and chose to have mercy on you anyway! We all should stop and meditate on this for a while!
This is very well communicated, biblically sound response to the distortion presented as Reformed belief.

This OP is a great illustration of “straw man” attacks common with the poster.

He continuously makes outrageous claims about what others believe concerning the doctrines of grace and believes he slays the straw man by his flawed analysis.

Thank you. Well done

Peace to you
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is very well communicated, biblically sound response to the distortion presented as Reformed belief.

This OP is a great illustration of “straw man” attacks common with the poster.

He continuously makes outrageous claims about what others believe concerning the doctrines of grace and believes he slays the straw man by his flawed analysis.

Thank you. Well done

Peace to you
Yet another ad homenim post, addressing none of the OP content, but full of false claims concerning the poster. This is all those copy and pasting centuries old arguments can offer, as scripture clearly precludes their false doctrines.

Many seek God at one time or another, the none ever seek God at any time is false doctrine.

God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, the unconditional election claim is obviously false.

Christ died as a ransom for all, not only a ransom for those to be saved, that claim is false.

People entering the kingdom, based on believing at least some of the gospel can be prevented by false doctrine, thus irresistible grace is yet another false doctrine.
 
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