Does Free Will Require a Redeemer?

[romanbear]

Hi frogman;
I think you misunderstood my apology. It was not for my belief, but a feeble attempt at keeping things peaceful. You have to admit that things get pretty raw on this board.

I do not, nor have I ever believed in works for Salvation. You think this because you believe works of any kind is for some measure of reward. I do works because I Love my Lord and Savior. Don't you? What is it about works that offends you? Helping the homeless is works. Being a preacher is works. Tithing is works. Handing out tracts is works. Visiting the sick and people in Jail is works. Reaching people for Christ is works. Fulfilling the great commission. Making a decision for Christ is not works because it's helping your self....

Judas was elected because he was a Jew. All Jews are God's chosen people every last one of them. from the beginning of time foreknown and chosen. This you can not get around. It's fact. You just dismiss it because you don't want to see it. You only look for what supports your own faith.

I know Calvinist are going to try and say "chosen" in this sense is different, but it's just alot of bologna.
Romanbear

[ March 02, 2003, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: romanbear ]

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi frogman;
I think you misunderstood my apology. It was not for my belief, but a feeble attempt at keeping things peaceful. You have to admit that things get pretty raw on this board.

I sincerely respect you Romanbear and very much appreciate your efforts at keeping the peace, this is both honorable and admirable. However, I just wanted you to know that it is unnecessary to apologize to me for anything. Nevertheless, this, nor your belief system influences my opinion or degree of love for you. I pray the blessings of God upon you.

I do not, nor have I ever believed in works for Salvation. You think this because you believe works of any kind is for some measure of reward. I do works because I Love my Lord and Savior. Don't you? What is it about works that offends you? Helping the homeless is works. Being a preacher is works. Tithing is works. Handing out tracts is works. Visiting the sick and people in Jail is works. Reaching people for Christ is works. Fulfilling the great commission. Making a decision for Christ is not works because it's helping your self....

Your last category is different than all the others you listed prior. To help yourself is definitely a work, in whatever way it is construed. Before this statement, I would fundamentally agree with you. However, I also believe our works after salvation will be rewarded, the difference here, not necessarily between me and you, but it is that many do perform the various things which you listed in order to receive both temporal blessings and with a view toward those 'crowns' in the world to come. Our Lord knows our hearts, and a heart serving Him with these as its motives will find its works destroyed in the flames of His judgement. I do not see how you can distinguish between works after salvation, but call 'helping yourself' to salvation not a work.

Judas was elected because he was a Jew. All Jews are God's chosen people every last one of them. from the beginning of time foreknown and chosen. This you can not get around. It's fact. You just dismiss it because you don't want to see it. You only look for what supports your own faith.

To believe this statement as truth you have to ignore Romans 9.8. Not all of Israel are of the seed; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (paraphrased).

I know Calvinist are going to try and say "chosen" in this sense is different, but it's just alot of bologna.
Romanbear

I see no relation in this to support your argument, nor the argument you are surmising Calvinists to assume. While it is possible for "chosen" to particular, I have not completed a word study on it sufficiently enough to warrant my attempt to prove to you that chosen does not always mean chosen, if some others have, then I relinquish the floor to them, respectably. Scripture, as I am sure you agree, is not bologna, and to assert as you have, you have to remove Romans 9 from scripture. The Word of God makes it clear that there is a remnant to be saved out of Israel. When the Bible speaks of all of Israel I believe it is speaking of the whole of this remnant, would we consider the 144,000 representing the whole of Israel. Or perhaps the Bible is speaking nationally here to foreshadow the redemption and deliverance of the nation and not particularly individuals. This is not outrageous to consider for you, is it?

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Ken H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by romanbear:
Because with out belief you can't be regenerated....

Clearly, the Bible teaches that one must be born again, or regenerated, or else he can't believe. </font>[/QUOTE]And How does one come to believe if one does not first hear? So the order is; 1. hearing, 2. believing, 3. regeneration, and 4. everlasting life!

 

[Hardsheller]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
If Job was "upright" or "righteous" and Abraham was declared "righteous" because of his faith...and we see others throughout the OT who God obviously viewed as "upright" or righteous"; then why does Romans 3:10-12 say that NNE is righteous, NO NOT ONE.

It appears to be a contradiction. Unless Romans 3:10-12 is referring to a certain group of people or a particular time in History.

Or maybe, it is just saying WITHOUT FAITH no one is righteous, no not one. [/QUOTE


And just maybe it's because Faith too is a gift from God!

 

[GH]

Hi Folks,

Whenever the topic of total depravity, being born again and faith come up, I'm reminded of certain believers in scripture that acted quite depraved, unregenerated and faithless.

Abraham was a liar and a deceiver (and passed those traits on to his kids and grandkids too) yet righteousness was credted to him because he believed. Gee whiz, brethren, God revealed Himself to Abraham. He spoke to him calling him out of Ur to a new country (whose builder and maker is God). Who wouldn't believe when God reveals Himself? God cut a one-sided covenant with Abraham - who slept through it - thereby showing without a doubt that the covenant depended on God and God only to fulfill. He said that ALL the families of the earth will be blessed because of Abraham. A type and a picture of Christ.

Then there's King David. A murderer, an adulterer and ate the showbread (he just walked right in to the Holy Place and took it - breaking ritualistic laws. And yet he danced before the Lord practically naked with joy. Is it possible he knew that his salvation came from the Living God and not based on his sinless perfection? He relied on God's grace to bring him into the Kingdom of God because he had a relationship with the LORD. Because he understood the Abramic Covenant even though he was constrained by the Mosaic Law.

David wrote:

Out of the depths I cry to you, O LORD;
O Lord, hear my voice.
Let your ears be attentive to my cry for mercy.

If, O LORD, you kept a record of sins,
O Lord, who could stand?

But with you there is forgiveness;
therefore you are feared.

I wait for the LORD, my soul waits,
and in His word I put my hope.

My soul waits for the Lord more than watchman
wait for the morning.

O Israel, put your hope in the LORD,
for with the LORD is unfailing love
and with him is full redemption.

He Himself will redeem Israel FROM ALL THEIR SINS. Psalm 130

Oh how does God redeem people from their sins?

Jesus Christ.

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us". (Romans 5:6-10)

Jesus reveals to us who God has always been. God has always suffered with those who suffer, God has always intimately known our condition. God has always been close to the broken-hearted. The cross does not change God at all, but it demonstrates very vividly who God is and always was. It shows us his shocking nearness, his scandalous love for us. It is a window to heaven that gives us a glimpse of God's radical love sacrificing for us and conquering death. It is a vision of grace in action. If you want to know what God is like, then look at the human Jesus. Watch him as he kneels beside the empty faces and touches the broken, watch as he himself is broken. See the man dragging a half ton cross through spit and mud, and stick your fingers in the scars on his hands. That is what God is like. God was on that cross. From: http://www.sharktacos.com/God/cross3.html

"I will ransom them from Hell. I will redeem the from Death

O Death I will be thy plague. O Hell I will be thy destruction" (Hosea 13:14)

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world".(Galatians 6:14)

For those who use God's justice as hammer of judgment on unbelievers:

"This is what the LORD Almighty says: `Administer true justice: show mercy and compassion to one another. (Zechariah 7:9)

"Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice".( Isaiah 30:18)

Yes, God is just - but His justice is merciful and compassionate. His judgements are redemptive and restorative.

Imo, any other view mocks His love, mercy, justice and compassion.

For God so loved the WORLD......should we not as well?

Peace, GH

 

[Jimmy J.]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:

And just maybe it's because Faith too is a gift from God!

Yep, faith is a gift from God. Never said it wasn't.

 

[William C]

Thank you Jimmy for actually reading my posts!!!

I've never said faith wasn't a gift from God. That is assumed by Calvinists.

Faith is a gift from God which comes from hearing the word. The ability to believe in the unseen is inate within all mankind as we see in Romans. Its a gift of his common grace to all. People throughout the scripture have faith in Christ without the Spirit indwelling them. Therefore to say that one can only have faith following regeneration just doesn't match up with a large portion of the scripture.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by GH:
Yes, God is just - but His justice is merciful and compassionate. His judgements are redemptive and restorative.

Imo, any other view mocks His love, mercy, justice and compassion.

Amen.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
And How does one come to believe if one does not first hear?

He doesn't as Rom 10 tells us.

So the order is; 1. hearing, 2. believing, 3. regeneration, and 4. everlasting life!

Can you demonstrate this order from Scripture?

 

[romanbear]

Hi frogman;

A quote from you;
-------------------------------------------------

To believe this statement as truth you have to ignore Romans 9.8. Not all of Israel are of the seed; but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. (paraphrased).
-------------------------------------------------
my reply;
"Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

The Jew is still counted for promise and seed they are the elect.

Take out the Italics and read it over to get the original meaning.In the KJV. The second time the word "are" is used it was added by the translator it's the only word in the sentence that is in Italics. Sometimes Italics help. Sometimes they hinder.

Of course not everyone from Israel is Jewish the land is infested with Philistines, always has been. One thing for sure though, Judas was a Jew and was from the seed of Abraham. Otherwise there would have been a lot said about it by Peter and few other disciples.

They didn't like Mathew at first because he was a tax collector the other disciple didn't want Jesus to even talk with Him...

The Jew today is so particular they even test others who claim to be Jewish by DNA. Every Jewish mothers son, is Jewish. Instead of being counted after the Fathers. They inherit there Jewishness through there mother's side of the family.

Romanbear

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
And How does one come to believe if one does not first hear?

He doesn't as Rom 10 tells us.

So the order is; 1. hearing, 2. believing, 3. regeneration, and 4. everlasting life!

Can you demonstrate this order from Scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]So the order is;
1. Hearing.
In the New Testament:
"Hear" appears 80 times
"hearing" 23 times. In the case of "hearing", precedes some other action such as: Hearing they decided, Hearing they went, Hearing they believed, and yes, hearing they rejected.
Heard appears 205 times. Typically, many of them are, "when (whomever) heard, (whomever) took some action or had some change take place within, such as quickening of the spirit. etc.
Hearers appears twice. The King James may contain some differences but you get the idea that Hearing is the first thing in the order of Salvation.

[Rom 10:14] How then are they to call on him if they have not come to believe in him? And how can they believe in him if they have never heard of him? And how will they hear of him unless there is a preacher for them?

[Rom 10:17] But it is in that way faith comes, from hearing, and that means hearing the word of Christ.

[John 6:60] After hearing it, many of his followers said, `This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept it?' (Jesus' words were not rejected until heard)

2. Believing, in the New Testament:
Believing appears 127 times
Believed appears 31 times
Believes appears 18 times
Believing appears 9 times
Belief appears 4 times
Beliefs appears 1 time

[1 Cor 1:10] Brothers, I urge you, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, not to have factions among yourselves but all to be in agreement in what you profess; so that you are perfectly united in your beliefs and judgments.

[Acts 16:29-34] He called for lights, then rushed in, threw himself trembling at the feet of Paul and Silas, and escorted them out, saying, `Sirs, what must I do to be saved?' They told him, `Become a believer in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, and your household too.' Then they preached the word of the Lord to him and to all his household. Late as it was, he took them to wash their wounds, and was baptised then and there with all his household. Afterwards he took them into his house and gave them a meal, and the whole household celebrated their conversion to belief in God.

[Mat 9:28-30a] And when Jesus reached the house the blind men came up to him and he said to them, `Do you believe I can do this?' They said, `Lord, we do.' Then he touched their eyes saying, `According to your faith, let it be done to you.' And their sight returned.

If faith is given to man by God, why would God ask "do you believe..."? Was he testing to see if God did his job? No, he was testing the blind to see if they believe, an act of human will. The blind men had obviously HEARD about Jesus' and his healing power from someone else and they believed that he was able to heal them too. So hearing comes before believing [/quote]

3. Regeneration: Making new. When one believes in someone or something, the one who believes has a "new" outlook, attitude, motivation, faith, toward that which is believed. One acts on what one believes, and in matters of the spirit, one purifies one's self as declared here By the Apostle Peter.

[1 Pet 1:22-25] Since by your obedience to the truth you have purified yourselves so that you can experience the genuine love of brothers, love each other intensely from the heart; for your new birth was not from any perishable seed but from imperishable seed, the living and enduring Word of God. For all humanity is grass, and all its beauty like the wild flower's. As grass withers, the flower fades, but the Word of the Lord remains for ever. And this Word is the Good News that has been brought to you.

4. Everlasting Life.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world (mankind) that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[Pastor Larry]

While I agree with the hearing-faith-everlasting life order, I see that your verse for regeneration does not place it after "faith." While technically speaking, I agree with your order, I disagree with the reasoning you used to get there.

I asked earlier, why doesn't the natural man receive the things of the Spirit of God? I asked for a reason, that you have just demonstrated.

You say, "hearing-faith-regeneration." Yet Paul tells us that that understanding of the message heard is impossible apart from the work of the holy Spirit. That work of the Holy Spirit is what most theologians calls regeneration, giving natural man the understanding of the significance of the message so that he responds.

You have read your order into Scripture, not out of it and there in lies the problem. Until you tell us how a natural man can hear and understand so as to have faith, your attempt will fall short of believable.

 

[Yelsew]

While I agree with the hearing-faith-everlasting life order, I see that your verse for regeneration does not place it after "faith." While technically speaking, I agree with your order, I disagree with the reasoning you used to get there.

And who do you say Peter is writing to? It is not unbelievers! Peter's letters are to believers, thus they heard, and believed, and are now regenerated, and have eternal life.

I asked earlier, why doesn't the natural man receive the things of the Spirit of God? I asked for a reason, that you have just demonstrated.

Who are you to say that natural man does not receive the milk of the word and understand it? It is the Gospel, the milk of the word, that natural man hears that he believes unto salvation.

You say, "hearing-faith-regeneration." Yet Paul tells us that that understanding of the message heard is impossible apart from the work of the holy Spirit. That work of the Holy Spirit is what most theologians calls regeneration, giving natural man the understanding of the significance of the message so that he responds.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Once one has "milk of the word" faith, the Holy Spirit works on that faith, strengthening it and transforming the "unbeliever" into a "Believer" and that sir is regeneration. Once regenerated, the Holy Spirit leads the Milk faith believer to becoming a "Meat of the word" faith believer. But regeneration begins with the milk faith stage and continues to the death of flesh stage, making constant adjustments as the believer allows. That is after all why even the Baptist churches have Adult Sunday School. Milk faith is the starting point, and it is sufficient unto salvation! Milk faith regenerates one from unbeliever to believer.

You have read your order into Scripture, not out of it and there in lies the problem. Until you tell us how a natural man can hear and understand so as to have faith, your attempt will fall short of believable.

You are simply quite ignorant of scripture if you do not see the God given order of Salvation.

I have stated several times that God made man with all that is necessary in order for man to hear his word and to decide (believe or not believe) that the word is for the man. You really should spend a little more time on the streets learning what man is and how man is made, we are not mindless flesh, we are intelligent beings, created by omni-intelligent God. Everything that God created into Adam, modern man retains! We have attributes that God gave us, and when we are redeemed, God gives us gifts that we are to use to Glorify Him. Even so, we are sinful creations by our own rebellious selves, desperately in need of a savior. Jesus is our savior, by belief and belief alone!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
And who do you say Peter is writing to? It is not unbelievers! Peter's letters are to believers, thus they heard, and believed, and are now regenerated, and have eternal life.

Righto ... he is telling them how they came to the obedience of the truth.

Who are you to say that natural man does not receive the milk of the word and understand it? It is the Gospel, the milk of the word, that natural man hears that he believes unto salvation.

I am not the one who said it. Paul did. I even quoted the Scripture for you.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Once one has "milk of the word" faith, the Holy Spirit works on that faith, strengthening it and transforming the "unbeliever" into a "Believer" and that sir is regeneration. Once regenerated, the Holy Spirit leads the Milk faith believer to becoming a "Meat of the word" faith believer. But regeneration begins with the milk faith stage and continues to the death of flesh stage, making constant adjustments as the believer allows. That is after all why even the Baptist churches have Adult Sunday School. Milk faith is the starting point, and it is sufficient unto salvation! Milk faith regenerates one from unbeliever to believer. [/qutoe]Where does the Bible make this distinction of milk faith vs. whatever else?? I agree that the Holy Spirit leads one to the meat of the word, but that has nothing to do with salvation. That is sanctification.

But you have someone here with faith (and therefore salvation) who has no regeneration. You say that the Holy Spirit takes the milk faith (that saved him) and transforms him by regeneration. That is simply not what the Bible says.

You are simply quite ignorant of scripture if you do not see the God given order of Salvation.

is this what you do when you run out of Scripture?? You call me ignorant?? That is totally uncalled for. I have simply asked you to substantiate your theology from Scripture. You failed and then called me ignorant.

I have stated several times that God made man with all that is necessary in order for man to hear his word and to decide (believe or not believe) that the word is for the man.

But Paul, with the inspiration of the Spirit, says you are wrong.

You really should spend a little more time on the streets learning what man is and how man is made, we are not mindless flesh, we are intelligent beings, created by omni-intelligent God.

I know what man is like. I have spent plenty of time on the streets, but I have combined that with time spent in Scripture. Scripture is where we draw our theology about man. The Bible tells us that the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desparately wicked, who can know it?? We cannot even fathom the depths of wickedness in our hearts ... but your theology does not account for that. Why?

Everything that God created into Adam, modern man retains!

How about innocence?? Man doesn't retain that. This is simply not true. The Bible says that because of Adam's sin, we are all in a state of death. Adam was created in a state of spiritual life. Once again the Scripture contradicts you.

 

[Yelsew]

MILK
1 Corinthians 3
1. And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, as unto babes in Christ.
2. I fed you with milk, not with meat; for ye were not yet able to bear it: nay, not even now are ye able;
3. for ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are ye not carnal, and do ye not walk after the manner of men?

Hebrews 5
12. For when by reason of the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need again that some one teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of solid food.
13. For every one that partaketh of milk is without experience of the word of righteousness; for he is a babe.
14. But solid food is for fullgrown men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.

1 Peter 2
1. Putting away therefore all wickedness, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2. as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation;
3. if ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious:
4. unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious,
5. ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Yelsew]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything that God created into Adam, modern man retains!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about innocence?? Man doesn't retain that. This is simply not true. The Bible says that because of Adam's sin, we are all in a state of death. Adam was created in a state of spiritual life. Once again the Scripture contradicts you.

Innocence is not an attribute of man. Adam was not created in a state of spiritual life. He was created in a state of righteousness, having no sin, able to be in the very presence of Holy God.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
MILK

This passage does not use "milk" to refer to a state of faith. You have read that into the text, not out of it. Paul is talking about their level of spiritual maturity after they are saved.

Once again, you have not produced any Scripture that supports you here.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Innocence is not an attribute of man. Adam was not created in a state of spiritual life. He was created in a state of righteousness, having no sin, able to be in the very presence of Holy God.

Adam did not know good and evil. That is called innocence. He was created in a state of spiritual life -- hence the warning about death. You appear so out of line with Scripture it is amazing. How can you not know this stuff?

 

[romanbear]

Hi everyone;
A quote from Larry
-------------------------------------------------

That work of the Holy Spirit is what most theologians calls regeneration, giving natural man the understanding of the significance of the message so that he responds.

-------------------------------------------------

I believe your wrong here Larry. Most theologians call regeneration being saved. You cannot be saved before you believe. We are drawn by the Holy Spirit but we are not regenerated until we believe. This again is confussion because faith alway comes before regenerated. In ever verse in the bible where it explains being saved, faith always comes first.
Romanbear

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by romanbear:
I believe your wrong here Larry. Most theologians call regeneration being saved. You cannot be saved before you believe. We are drawn by the Holy Spirit but we are not regenerated until we believe. This again is confussion because faith alway comes before regenerated. In ever verse in the bible where it explains being saved, faith always comes first.
Romanbear

Then I would suggest you read some theologians like Hodge, Strong, Grudem (a little easier read), Berkhof, Boettner, or Reymond. All of these will confirm exactly what I have said. It would be worth your time to explore this so that you will be familiar with how these terms are used.