Does God alter His own will at times??

[Humblesmith]

First, God is not in Time. Rather, he is eternal, which is outside of Time.

Second, God does not think sequentially. This is true because since he knows everything from eternity, there is nothing that he can learn, nothing that he needs to think about to figure out. So God does not think in sequence like we do.

Therefore God cannot change his mind.

 

[Allan]

All those scripture passages which seem to speak of God changing his mind must be interpreted in the light of clear, unmistakable passages which speak of of the opposite. As in I Sam 15:29.

I can't imagine God saying, "I don't lie, ever. I don't change, ever. Oh, except once in a while."

I agree Tom. But God says one thing and then decides not to do that thing. The whole doesn't change is not about and has nothing to do with God changing His mind but the Nature of Charactor of God.

Just because God WILL do something if sin continues among a people, and then does not do it because the people repent and change; does not mean that God changed His mind and more than I do when I tell someone to stop pushing me or else. If they stop, my intended purpose if fulfilled. They questions comes now is what is Gods intended purpose, for there are times in scripture where people listen and times when they don't.

I hold that Gods knows all things and that through He declarations to a sinful people (like in Jonah and others) His will is carried out to their repenting to the glory of God or to their willful disobedience and their punishment to the Glory of God.

We do not know the mind of God, but God knows the mind of all men.

 

[Allan]

Hey brother.

Greetings to you as well brother.

I suppose you could look at this as God's perfect will vs His acceptable will. Some look at 2 Peter 3:9 as stating that it is not God's perfect will that some would not perish, but His acceptable will. He does not want them to perish, but some will. If it was His perfect will, they would not perish. I think you know how I believe 2 Peter 3:9... that He is not willing that any of the elect perish.

I contend much the same but am used to using permissable in place of acceptable yet in 'MY' estimation I believe them to be of the same construct so I have not problem. I also hold to the same context of 2 Peter 3:9 meaning to God is not willing that none should perish (those whom He knows are His) but that all should come unto repentence. (that God will not cut short the time to bring forth His righteous judgment till all have come to Him through repentence.)

I would have to say that when God added 15 years to life... it is anthropomorphic language..... that God knew perfectly well how long a person would live, but can use language that describes the situation that suggests that He added years to life. .

I might agree with you 'IF' the context supported that argument. But God sent His prophet Isaiah To him to tell him that "...he WILL die and to get his affairs in order..." This was a word from the Lord and it was explict towards a time table as God sent Isaiah to tell him to get his affairs in order. If God was not actaully about to take his life through the sickness of which he was unto death then why send the prophet to tell him to get his affairs in order.

I think that you know that God knows perfectly well all the years a man will live. Psalms 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained {for me,} When as yet there was not one of them

It is for this reason I wanted to look at these these types of scriptures. God does know the life of every man but in these types of verses can we not say that the life span of a man is under the permissive or acceptable will of God and that man will be and do certain things according to His eternal Will. Because If mans life span was under Gods permissive/acceptable will then He can enact anything upon that life's time (extention or reduction) as long as it allows for the eternal wills decreed aspects to be fulfilled.

This is what I was curious about.

 

[Allan]

God's declarations of His will are often contigent in nature. Jonah is an good example of this. God's declaration through Jonah was the Ninevah was going to be destroyed in 40 days. No contingencies stated, yet both Jonah (Jonah 4:1) and the people of Ninevah (Jonah 3:9) recognized its contigent nature.

I disagree that the people of Ninevah recognized its contigent nature as their own words expressed desperation that God "MIGHT" not continue with his plan.

Jon 3:9 Who can tell [if] God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

So it was not that they saw any contingencies but set out to beg for mercy. And the scriptures state :

Jon 3:10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.

God saw they had turned and therefore withheld His judgment in mercy towards them. Yet we also know that many years later God did destroy Nivevah since they went back to their old ways.

But we know that God KNEW what they would do and that if He had not done it in this manner Ninevah would not have repented.

God also reveals the contigent nature of His declarations in Jer 18:8-10; 26:3. Does God know what will actually happen when He makes these contigent declarations? Of course. So why does He make them? Because they are the means He chooses by which to accomplish His purpose.

Agreed. Yet what I am trying to discuss in not that God brings into existence His desired will (we all believe this) but does God modify His will concerning the life spans of men.

So, does God change His mind? No, but He does often make His will known in contingent ways so that *we* will change our minds.

or not change their minds that Gods Righteous judgment before all men might be witnessed and established.

 

[Allan]

...

I got another -- Isa 59:16-17 -- "and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. 16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:..."

First I notice -- do you suppose God was "displeased" with His plan? Why? How? He could do whatever He wanted to, right? What could go wrong?

Not His plan but His people. He knows what His plan entails but that does not remove the fact that God is a jeleous God over His people. He knows what they will do and is sadend/angered/displeased by their choice but not suprised. He disires them to fear the Lord, worship and obey the Lord yet, He knows where they will stumble, and where they will fall, and where/when they will be the jewels He will make up...(Mal 4:17)

Second, I notice -- God was "surprised!" What -- He didn't know though He planned it Himself that there would be no intercessor??

That 'suprised' you are refering in to is more acturately translated 'stunned or amazed' and not 'suprised'. Just as an example (though it is pitiful at best when trying to describe anything concerning God)
I can know that God will do something - Such as provide
and yet is still stuns or amazes me when I behold it, in spite of that knowledge.
- I think this is typified herein with God to some degree or sense -

So when do you suppose that He "saw" all this -- when He predestined it or when He foreknew it? Did He really have to wait and see?

Before the foundation of the World. He created nothing with His knowledge of it first and nothing that was created was known fully to God regarding His purposes and intents.

 

[Allan]

First, God is not in Time. Rather, he is eternal, which is outside of Time.

Granted.

Second, God does not think sequentially. This is true because since he knows everything from eternity, there is nothing that he can learn, nothing that he needs to think about to figure out.

Your reasoning hold no water and is without any biblical support. Just because He knows everything from eternity (where no time is) does not nessesitate He that which He foreknew was not known to Him within the construct of Time He will create. For though Time was not yet, in the heart of God it was to be and therefore existed in the mind of God concerning His creation and plan and purpose for His pleasure. I agree that God can learn nothing new, and that nothing ever 'occurs' to God, or has to figure out. Yet this does not substantiate anything concerning your point that God does not think sequentially.

Therefore God cannot change his mind.

We know this but your model is much like a painting of the mountains. Though it looks pretty and represents your point of view it is still iat best maginary.

 

[skypair]

WOW sky i am quite surprised at your post...are u saying the Son does not know all things? And if your answer is no then explain Christ claims to be God? Even more surprising is that if indeed you are a member of Bellevue Baptist in Cordova, TN you which has good solid doctrinal teaching under Dr. Rogers leadership for years...and I assure you he would not agree with you.

Brad, don't be silly. Are you saying Jesus lied when He said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Mt 24:36

Believe me, I've heard Dr. Rogers on this very thing and he avers what Jesus said -- ONLY the Father knew. And I would not say that was an exhaustive list of what He didn't know that His Father did, either.

skypair

 

[GordonSlocum]

I came across these scriptures, which I am familar with but never really noticed a certain significance to them till now.

FIRST : I believe that God has established all that will be from the beginning.
However, I will use the scriptures below to establish the question presented in the OP

So...Here are two sets of scripture that gave me pause, and wanted to ask what you all think.

Now here we see that David is declaring the ungodly men will not live out half of their [intended] life span because David then speaks to the converse of that statement that he will trust in God implying he will live out all of his days.

Then this one:

Here we have two distinct declarations by God.
One declaration by God is that Hezekiah WILL die and not live and for him to get his affairs in order because he was sick unto death (about to die).
Then...
God sends the prophet Isaiah BACK to say a second THUS SAITH THE LORD (declaration from God) that Hezekiah will NOW live 15 more years because God heard his prayer and seen his tears.

Notice God didn't tell Hezekiah to do anything or call unto Him that God would heal him. God said he was going to die and then God spins the prophet around and says "I have seen and heard you and will grant you 15 more years of life".

Just curious as to your thoughts. Does God alter His own will at times and for His good pleasure since it appears the prayers and tears of Hezekiah moved the heart of God to change His original decree that he WILL die and to prepare for it.
And the first shows God can and does cut the lives of even the wicked in half showing they will not live out their pre-designed life spans.

I have some of my own thoughts on it but want to here from you all...

What say ye??

Edited In>>>I know there will be debate here over this - which is why I placed it in the debate section (but for me I want to see peoples thoughts concerning it)

This is perhaps an excellent example of the Foreknowledge of God. While we read it in the present (for us past ). We are not in control but we do have the freedom to pray and do limited things within our time and space environment. God's will for us and the plan of History as He has planned all comes into play here. It causes me to rejoice and praise God just considering the story as you have related it. Prayer does matter. While God already had answered it according to his will for us and his plan we in our real world should always pray with the attitude that we are free to do so and that God really does listen and change his mind when we ask. But as a loving Heavenly Father he answers according to what is best for us.

Yes, God changes his mind when we pray. From eternity on the basis of His Absolute Knowledge it is as good as set in stone. But as it is lived out it is as it is. Isn't God wonderful.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Just passing through kinda quickly this morning. Not much time to talk.

I do not believe that God's will ever changes. God's will is who He is.

With that being said and in reference to your two scriptures, God does approach the each person's case on an individual basis. I don't think that David's psalm is a universal indictment to all of the "bad guys" nor a universal cushion for long life for all of the good guys.

God's heart can be moved and His responses to mankind may alter, but never His will. Remember, God regretted that He ever made humanity and wiped the earth clean of them all, except for Noah and His family. But the earth was repopulated, and God's will for humanity continued. Just not with the same people.

God's will cannot change. God's unique and individual plans for people and groups of people may change according to said people's actions and groups of people's actions. We cannot interfere with God's plans, but we can be a righteous person whose prayers move God (availeth much) or we can be an evil person who provokes God's wrath.

God is not wishy-washy. He does not depend on humanity for His thinking nor planning. But He responds to how we behave as a father would respond to His own children.

His responses can alter. His will never changes.

Gotta go!!

I really enjoyed your post.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Yes, I have many commentaries at my disposal both Calvinist and non-Calvinist.
But My question is directed to you and what you think.
If John Piper was here I would welcome his thoughts and insights as well but since he is not, I welcome your comments.

Allen this is so refreshing.

 

[Oasis]

Brad, don't be silly. Are you saying Jesus lied when He said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Mt 24:36

Believe me, I've heard Dr. Rogers on this very thing and he avers what Jesus said -- ONLY the Father knew. And I would not say that was an exhaustive list of what He didn't know that His Father did, either.

Hi skypair,

I know the verse in Matthew and really had not given much thought about Jesus' knowledge of the "day and hour".

How does all this line up with all the verses in Scripture where He identifies Himself as God, like in John 14:7, John 10:30, etc...?

 

[MB]

Hi Allan;

I came across these scriptures, which I am familar with but never really noticed a certain significance to them till now.

FIRST : I believe that God has established all that will be from the beginning.
However, I will use the scriptures below to establish the question presented in the OP

So...Here are two sets of scripture that gave me pause, and wanted to ask what you all think.

Now here we see that David is declaring the ungodly men will not live out half of their [intended] life span because David then speaks to the converse of that statement that he will trust in God implying he will live out all of his days.

Then this one:

Here we have two distinct declarations by God.
One declaration by God is that Hezekiah WILL die and not live and for him to get his affairs in order because he was sick unto death (about to die).
Then...
God sends the prophet Isaiah BACK to say a second THUS SAITH THE LORD (declaration from God) that Hezekiah will NOW live 15 more years because God heard his prayer and seen his tears.

Notice God didn't tell Hezekiah to do anything or call unto Him that God would heal him. God said he was going to die and then God spins the prophet around and says "I have seen and heard you and will grant you 15 more years of life".

Just curious as to your thoughts. Does God alter His own will at times and for His good pleasure since it appears the prayers and tears of Hezekiah moved the heart of God to change His original decree that he WILL die and to prepare for it.
And the first shows God can and does cut the lives of even the wicked in half showing they will not live out their pre-designed life spans.

I have some of my own thoughts on it but want to here from you all...

What say ye??

Edited In>>>I know there will be debate here over this - which is why I placed it in the debate section (but for me I want to see peoples thoughts concerning it)

This was very interesting because it explains How all things are possible with God.
I don't believe for a minute than God Himself changed. Although it appears he changed His mind which is not a sign of God changing. Simply God has always been able to change His mind. Seems man would place restrictions on God's character keeping Him from changing His attitude towards men. With out change the only possiblities are what is predestined to be. We know all things are possible with God. Even Salvation for all the world is possible with God. Many things are impossible with man but, with God, nothing is impossible.
MB

 

[Humblesmith]

We hold that:
--Nothing "occurs" to God
--God does not have to figure things out
--God already knows everything
--God created time (Gen. 1.1)
--God acted prior to time; i.e., acted outside of time (2 Tim. 1.9; Titus 1.2)
--He cannot do the same act "before time" and also "in time" in the same sense, for this is a contradiction.
--Therefore there is no room for a process in God's thinking, and no room for a sequence to His thoughts.


Saying that God works and thinks from eternity, yet thinks in "foreknown" time is at best an equivocation of the term "time" and more likely a direct contradiction. God is not bound by time, nor is there any need for him to voluntarily work within it. He does not need to be finite because he created finite things; nor does he need to be like an effect merely because he created an effect. Time is his creation; he is not bound by it.

 

[Allan]

We hold that:
--Nothing "occurs" to God
--God does not have to figure things out
--God already knows everything
--God created time (Gen. 1.1)
--God acted prior to time; i.e., acted outside of time (2 Tim. 1.9; Titus 1.2)
--He cannot do the same act "before time" and also "in time" in the same sense, for this is a contradiction.
--Therefore there is no room for a process in God's thinking, and no room for a sequence to His thoughts.


Saying that God works and thinks from eternity, yet thinks in "foreknown" time is at best an equivocation of the term "time" and more likely a direct contradiction. God is not bound by time, nor is there any need for him to voluntarily work within it. He does not need to be finite because he created finite things; nor does he need to be like an effect merely because he created an effect. Time is his creation; he is not bound by it.

Your logic is faulty here, Humble. 'Before time' simply means at a point in which time is not manifested yet but it does exist in the knowledge of God who WILL create that time and all that will come to pass (sequence) IN Time.
How is there no room for process in Gods thinking?
How do you KNOW that God didn't have room for a process? The fact is you don't, but your view is set to help maintain you view of how you understand God. IF it was different you would have to change some of your views.

Yes God can do the same act 'before time' (foreknowedge, determining, decreeing) and also 'In Time' (bringing into being His plan and purpose).

What God does IN time is due to His knowledge outside of time that corrisponds to order OF Time He created, that IN Time His will is to be fulfilled regarding its timing.

Yes God is bound by Time for Time is part of His plan and purpose therefore it necessitates that God abide by His determined will. God is not bound by time though but by His purpose and plan with regard to time. Otherwise Why is God longsuffering to usward (the elect)...not willing that any (elect) should perish but that all come to repentence? The problem you seem to over look is that Time is set in Gods will and therefore binds God to the aspect of His will conerning time and that which He purposed for it and the very reason He works both IN Time and outside of Time.

 

[Rippon]

This thread is becoming more metaphysical than theological .

 

[webdog]

I see nothing wrong with it becoming both, as that is the truth.

 

[Allan]

I agree with both Rippon AND Webdog. (Now THAT is a contradiction!!) LOL.
Let us get back (if we will) to the OP at hand.

Though it does have some aspects involved in the time issue, that was not the reason for the OP.

Does God change His will at times?

 

[skypair]

Oasis

Hi skypair,

I know the verse in Matthew and really had not given much thought about Jesus' knowledge of the "day and hour".

How does all this line up with all the verses in Scripture where He identifies Himself as God, like in John 14:7, John 10:30, etc...?

Here's the "model" I am working with -- the "trinity" model of God. It was expressed to me by my late pastor Dr. Rogers. It goes like this -- we are all made in the image of God -- triune in nature (soul, spirit, and body). That being the "mold," God is the soul and very identity of both His Spirit and His Son. (This is so much so that Jesus said, "Him that believeth on Me believeth not on Me but on Him Who sent Me." John 12:44)

BUT just like you are unfamiliar with what your soul is and what it "knows"/remembers about you, just so Jesus, the body of God, does not know all that the Father does. Are you seeing that?

Now in that model, God justifies our soul upon our belief in Him -- the Spirit sanctifies our spirit when He comes to abide IN us (indwell us) -- And Jesus glorifies us when He raptures us to heaven.

Your question regarding how Jesus then say He is God is this -- you have a body which is the physical manifestation of who you are. But it is your soul that really determines whether you are identified with God or with self -- saved or lost.

Let me know if that was helpful :thumbs:

skypair

 

[skypair]

We hold that:
--Nothing "occurs" to God

So it never "occurred" to God to make man? Who do you give credit for thinking it up then?

--God does not have to figure things out

Is that an argument for evolution? or intelligent design?

--God already knows everything

Yeah, now He does (or could if He wanted to).

--God acted prior to time; i.e., acted outside of time (2 Tim. 1.9; Titus 1.2)
--He cannot do the same act "before time" and also "in time" in the same sense, for this is a contradiction.
--Therefore there is no room for a process in God's thinking, and no room for a sequence to His thoughts.

Now why do you set this up as if God did the same act outside of time that He does in time? Aren't you just saying that God can't think? Like you say that a totally depraved person can hear but not comprehend?

God seems to have lost a little of His "luster" in your paradigm.

Saying that God works and thinks from eternity, yet thinks in "foreknown" time is at best an equivocation of the term "time" and more likely a direct contradiction. God is not bound by time, nor is there any need for him to voluntarily work within it. He does not need to be finite because he created finite things; nor does he need to be like an effect merely because he created an effect. Time is his creation; he is not bound by it.

So He didn't need to become a man, Jesus, after all?

skypair

 

[Oasis]

skypair

skypair Quote:
Originally Posted by Oasis
Hi skypair,

I know the verse in Matthew and really had not given much thought about Jesus' knowledge of the "day and hour".

How does all this line up with all the verses in Scripture where He identifies Himself as God, like in John 14:7, John 10:30, etc...?


Here's the "model" I am working with -- the "trinity" model of God. It was expressed to me by my late pastor Dr. Rogers. It goes like this -- we are all made in the image of God -- triune in nature (soul, spirit, and body). That being the "mold," God is the soul and very identity of both His Spirit and His Son. (This is so much so that Jesus said, "Him that believeth on Me believeth not on Me but on Him Who sent Me." John 12:44)

BUT just like you are unfamiliar with what your soul is and what it "knows"/remembers about you, just so Jesus, the body of God, does not know all that the Father does. Are you seeing that?

Now in that model, God justifies our soul upon our belief in Him -- the Spirit sanctifies our spirit when He comes to abide IN us (indwell us) -- And Jesus glorifies us when He raptures us to heaven.

Your question regarding how Jesus then say He is God is this -- you have a body which is the physical manifestation of who you are. But it is your soul that really determines whether you are identified with God or with self -- saved or lost.

Let me know if that was helpful

skypair

Hi skypair,

Thanks for going through that. I'll have to chew on that for a while. I sure miss Dr. Rodgers.:tear:
I get to listen to his sermons most days at 10am on radio if I'm in my semi.

ybiC