Does God Always Get His Way With Man?

[Charlie24]

Interesting question, "does God always get His way/will with man. With some quick Scriptural fact-checking it would appear, no, God doesn't always get His way with man. But it's far from that simple.

I'll get into some fact-checking and the reason why it's not that simple. The interesting part for me is that God's "Sovereign Will" rises to the forefront. There are countless verses of Scripture that teach the Sovereign Will of God-- that what He has predetermined to take place in this universe from beginning to end will take place. First, let's do some quick fact-checking.

Paul said this in 1 Tim.2:3-4
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Peter said this in 2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

So Paul and Peter agree that it is God's will that all men/women be saved.

But Christ said this in Matt. 7:13-14
"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

So God's will is that all be saved, but we see that few actually will be saved. This leads us to believe that God does not always get His way/will with man.

Because of this, the theologians have inspired 3 concepts of God's will,
1) God's Sovereign Will
2) God's Revealed Will
3) God's Dispositional Will

See what I meant by "its far from that simple?

I've studied this before years ago, but instead of me stumbling through this, I've found an article that explains it much better than I ever could. Take the time to read it if you have time and I would like your thoughts.

Hopefully we can glean from this a better understanding of God's will!

What is the difference between God’s sovereign will and God’s revealed will? | GotQuestions.org

 

[KenH]

 

[KenH]

"I’ve been called a hyper-calvinist because I believe in a doctrine called equal ultimacy. This doctrine is also known as double predestination. Equal ultimacy is the teaching that just as God elected to save a number of people before the foundation of the world He also elected to damn a number of people before the foundation of the world through reprobation. This belief is usually tied to supralapsarianism as opposed to infralapsarianism. Supralapsarianism is the doctrine that the events of history were brought about by God for no other reason other than these events are a fulfillment of His decree to glorify Himself and that these events are brought about as a means to an end. This is also known as Absolute Predestination. In other words, God decreed all the events of the world including the fall of men, redemption, damnation, every drop of rain, every word uttered by men, and every grunt made by beast all before the foundation of the world in order to bring about His desired result. I believe that God predestined His elect to fall in Adam so that they would be saved in Christ.

Most calvinists today are infralapsarians and they believe that God decreed to send Christ and save His people because of the fall. In the infralapsarian scheme God chooses to save individuals out of the mass of fallen humanity and then passes over the rest of humanity in reprobation. Infralapsarians usually claim to be against equal ultimacy, but it is my opinion that they cannot logically escape the conclusion that “passing over” is the same as “not electing” which is really election to the negative. It is my opinion that infralapsarianism is really a scheme of selection and not the biblical doctrine of election. Infralapsarians are often found to be opposed to supralapsarianism because they usually believe that supralapsarianism makes God the “author of sin.” What I find odd about that phrase is that it is nowhere to be found in Scripture, yet it’s a phrase that is often guarded like a sacred cow not to be touched. For the record, I do not believe evil and sin originate in the character of God but that He predestined these events for His purposes. It is impossible for God to sin, so I really don’t see what the big deal is. If you want a good definition of sin or evil, just look to God for the definitions as these things are the exact opposite of His Holy Nature. While infralapsarians often accuse supralapsarians with charging God as the “author of sin,” supralapsarians can equally charge infralapsarians with believing that God allowed sin to happen and did nothing to stop it! If I had to pick which one was worse based solely on logic, I’d have to conclude the infralapsarian scheme is because it depicts God with not getting what He wanted and without power to stop something He did not predestine. Infralapsarians also have difficulty explaining where sin came from and sometimes refer to a strange doctrine known as eternal law that exists outside of God which God Himself is bound to obey. I don’t know where any scriptural foundation for this strange belief is found, so you’ll have to ask an infralapsarian that believes in these things to explain this for you if you’re interested. It is my belief that God is the eternal law if there is such a thing."

- rest of this article by Brandan Kraft at Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist - Brandan Kraft

 

[Charlie24]

"I’ve been called a hyper-calvinist because I believe in a doctrine called equal ultimacy. This doctrine is also known as double predestination. Equal ultimacy is the teaching that just as God elected to save a number of people before the foundation of the world He also elected to damn a number of people before the foundation of the world through reprobation. This belief is usually tied to supralapsarianism as opposed to infralapsarianism. Supralapsarianism is the doctrine that the events of history were brought about by God for no other reason other than these events are a fulfillment of His decree to glorify Himself and that these events are brought about as a means to an end. This is also known as Absolute Predestination. In other words, God decreed all the events of the world including the fall of men, redemption, damnation, every drop of rain, every word uttered by men, and every grunt made by beast all before the foundation of the world in order to bring about His desired result. I believe that God predestined His elect to fall in Adam so that they would be saved in Christ.

Most calvinists today are infralapsarians and they believe that God decreed to send Christ and save His people because of the fall. In the infralapsarian scheme God chooses to save individuals out of the mass of fallen humanity and then passes over the rest of humanity in reprobation. Infralapsarians usually claim to be against equal ultimacy, but it is my opinion that they cannot logically escape the conclusion that “passing over” is the same as “not electing” which is really election to the negative. It is my opinion that infralapsarianism is really a scheme of selection and not the biblical doctrine of election. Infralapsarians are often found to be opposed to supralapsarianism because they usually believe that supralapsarianism makes God the “author of sin.” What I find odd about that phrase is that it is nowhere to be found in Scripture, yet it’s a phrase that is often guarded like a sacred cow not to be touched. For the record, I do not believe evil and sin originate in the character of God but that He predestined these events for His purposes. It is impossible for God to sin, so I really don’t see what the big deal is. If you want a good definition of sin or evil, just look to God for the definitions as these things are the exact opposite of His Holy Nature. While infralapsarians often accuse supralapsarians with charging God as the “author of sin,” supralapsarians can equally charge infralapsarians with believing that God allowed sin to happen and did nothing to stop it! If I had to pick which one was worse based solely on logic, I’d have to conclude the infralapsarian scheme is because it depicts God with not getting what He wanted and without power to stop something He did not predestine. Infralapsarians also have difficulty explaining where sin came from and sometimes refer to a strange doctrine known as eternal law that exists outside of God which God Himself is bound to obey. I don’t know where any scriptural foundation for this strange belief is found, so you’ll have to ask an infralapsarian that believes in these things to explain this for you if you’re interested. It is my belief that God is the eternal law if there is such a thing."

- rest of this article by Brandan Kraft at Confession of a Hyper-Calvinist - Brandan Kraft

What are your thoughts on the OP itself?

 

[KenH]

Interesting question, "does God always get His way/will with man.

Yes. God has decreed and ordained everything that has ever and will ever happen.

So Paul and Peter agree that it is God's will that all men/women be saved.

"All" meaning all of God's elect that He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, and to come to earth and secure for them a perfect righteousness, which is imputed to them, their sins having been imputed to Christ and for which He paid their total sin debt(2 Corinthians 5:21).

This leads us to believe that God does not always get His way/will with man.

God always "gets His way", as He is the absolute totally Sovereign Creator of the universe. And He does according to His purposes and for His glory with all of His creation.

See what I meant by "its far from that simple?

Actually, it is "simple". God is the Creator, the Creator does as He pleases with His creation for his purposes and for His glory.

Fallen, unregenerated man gnashes his teeth at the sovereignty of God, just as God ordained that they would do in their fallen, unregenerated state. Even God's elect, after the Holy Spirit has regenerated them and granted them the gifts of faith in Christ and repentance from dead works, may not immediately recognize just how truly and absolutely sovereign that their God is. It was probably a little over a year after I was regenerated before God graciously opened my eyes to this truth.

 

[Charlie24]

That's not what Paul and Peter said, Ken! There is no reason whatsoever to believe they were referring to the elect, as you suggest!

"All" is all of mankind that God's desires to be saved!

 

[Charlie24]

Yes. God has decreed and ordained everything that has ever and will ever happen.



"All" meaning all of God's elect that He chose before the world began and gave to His Son to be their Surety, and to come to earth and secure for them a perfect righteousness, which is imputed to them, their sins having been imputed to Christ and for which He paid their total sin debt(2 Corinthians 5:21).



God always "gets His way", as He is the absolute totally Sovereign Creator of the universe. And He does according to His purposes and for His glory with all of His creation.



Actually, it is "simple". God is the Creator, the Creator does as He pleases with His creation for his purposes and for His glory.

Fallen, unregenerated man gnashes his teeth at the sovereignty of God, just as God ordained that they would do in their fallen, unregenerated state. Even God's elect, after the Holy Spirit has regenerated them and granted them the gifts of faith in Christ and repentance from dead works, may not immediately recognize just how truly and absolutely sovereign that their God is. It was probably a little over a year after I was regenerated before God graciously opened my eyes to this truth.

That's not what Paul and Peter said, Ken! There is no reason whatsoever to believe they were referring to the elect, as you suggest!

"All" is all of mankind that God's desires to be saved!

 

[KenH]

1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved."

"The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones.

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 Timothy 2:4

 

[KenH]

That's not what Paul and Peter said, Ken! There is no reason whatsoever to believe they were referring to the elect, as you suggest!

You used exclamation points. Why are you shouting? You asked a question for people to answer. So I will ask a question: Did you want to hear other people's answers, or did you just want to hear other people agreeing with you?

 

[Scarlett O.]

The answer to the OP is no.

God gave Cain four opportunities to "do right and be accepted" as God explained it.

Cain refused.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ loved the rich young ruler. Jesus began a conversation that would have led him to eternal life.

He walked away.

 

[Charlie24]

1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved."

"The salvation which God wills that all men should enjoy, is not a mere possibility of salvation, or a mere putting them into a salvable state; or an offer of salvation to them; or a proposal of sufficient means of it to all in his word; but a real, certain, and actual salvation, which he has determined they shall have; and is sure from his own appointment, from the provision of Christ as a Saviour for them, from the covenant of grace, in which everything is secured necessary for it, and from the mission of Christ to effect it, and from its being effected by him: wherefore the will of God, that all men should be saved, is not a conditional will, or what depends on the will of man, or on anything to be performed by him, for then none might be saved; and if any should, it would be of him that willeth, contrary to the express words of Scripture; but it is an absolute and unconditional will respecting their salvation, and which infallibly secures it: nor is it such a will as is distinguishable into antecedent and consequent; with the former of which it is said, God wills the salvation of all men, as they are his creatures, and the work of his hands; and with the latter he wills, or not wills it, according to their future conduct and behaviour; but the will of God concerning man's salvation is entirely one, invariable, unalterable, and unchangeable: nor is it merely his will of approbation or complacency, which expresses only what would be grateful and well pleasing, should it be, and which is not always fulfilled; but it is his ordaining, purposing, and determining will, which is never resisted, so as to be frustrated, but is always accomplished: the will of God, the sovereign and unfrustrable will of God, has the governing sway and influence in the salvation of men; it rises from it, and is according to it; and all who are saved God wills they should be saved; nor are any saved, but whom he wills they should be saved: hence by all men, whom God would have saved, cannot be meant every individual of mankind, since it is not his will that all men, in this large sense, should be saved, unless there are two contrary wills in God; for there are some who were before ordained by him unto condemnation, and are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction; and it is his will concerning some, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned; nor is it fact that all are saved, as they would be, if it was his will they should; for who hath resisted his will? but there is a world of ungodly men that will be condemned, and who will go into everlasting punishment: rather therefore all sorts of men, agreeably to the use of the phrase in 1 Timothy 2:1 are here intended, kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners; and therefore all are to be prayed for, even all sorts of men, because God will have all men, or all sorts of men, saved; and particularly the Gentiles may be designed, who are sometimes called the world, the whole world, and every creature; whom God would have saved, as well as the Jews, and therefore Heathens, and Heathen magistrates, were to be prayed for as well as Jewish ones.

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on 1 Timothy 2:4

Mr. Gill did not understand God's dispositional will. Though He desires everyone to repent and be saved, in His displeasure with man's wickedness, He decrees certain things "that gives Him no pleasure." As in the death (spiritual death) of the wicked.

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

God is here desiring that they be saved, but they refuse, and God has no pleasure in their death (spiritual death.)

 

[Charlie24]

The answer to the OP is no.

God gave Cain four opportunities to "do right and be accepted" as God explained it.

Cain refused.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ loved the rich young ruler. Jesus began a conversation that would have led him to eternal life.

He walked away.

Well said, Scarlett!

 

[Charlie24]

You used exclamation points. Why are you shouting? You asked a question for people to answer. So I will ask a question: Did you want to hear other people's answers, or did you just want to hear other people agreeing with you?

Not all of us Fundamentals shout. We're just firm!!!

 

[KenH]

Mr. Gill did not understand God's dispositional will.

God's will is always efficacious.

 

[Charlie24]

God's will is always efficacious.

Of course He is, but we need to grasp a better understanding of HIs will for mankind.

 

[KenH]

Mr. Gill did not understand God's dispositional will. Though He desires everyone to repent and be saved, in His displeasure with man's wickedness, He decrees certain things "that gives Him no pleasure." As in the death (spiritual death) of the wicked.

Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD."

"Which is not to be interpreted simply and absolutely, and with respect to all persons afflicted and punished by him; for he does take delight in the exercise of "judgment" and "righteousness", and "laughs" at the "calamity" of wicked men, Jeremiah 9:24; but comparatively, as in Hosea 5:6. The sense is, that he takes no pleasure in the afflictions, calamities, and captivity of men, which are meant by death here; but rather that they would repent and reform, and live in their own land, and enjoy the good things of it."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Ezekiel 18:32

 

[Charlie24]

Ezekiel 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD."

"Which is not to be interpreted simply and absolutely, and with respect to all persons afflicted and punished by him; for he does take delight in the exercise of "judgment" and "righteousness", and "laughs" at the "calamity" of wicked men, Jeremiah 9:24; but comparatively, as in Hosea 5:6. The sense is, that he takes no pleasure in the afflictions, calamities, and captivity of men, which are meant by death here; but rather that they would repent and reform, and live in their own land, and enjoy the good things of it."

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Ezekiel 18:32

And what is the alternative to refusing to repent? It's spiritual death that God takes no pleasure in.

Ezekiel 18:32 is God begging man, please, please, turn to me and live, I don't want you to die (spiritual death).

This is not a God that has predestined anyone to eternal damnation!

 

[KenH]

Ezekiel 18:32 is God begging man

The God of the Bible does not beg His creatures for anything.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Romans 9:10-24 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[KenH]

This is not a God that has predestined anyone to eternal damnation!

"According to the Bible, per His eternal and immutable will, and to the praise of His glory, God actively and unconditionally decreed or predestined the reprobate for hell (Romans 9:10-14). Therefore, God hates the reprobate (Psalms 5:5).

Active means God is the prime agent, or the sole ultimate cause of all things (Isaiah 46:10), who decreed, determined, ordained or predestined the goats to hell, also known as everlasting conscious torment.

The word unconditional emphasizes that God ordained or decreed the non-elect for hell, not on the basis of foreseen disbelief, but on the basis of His free and immutable will, and to the praise of His glorious grace (Romans 9:17, Romans 9:20-22).


Excerpt from Biblical Reprobation: A primer on the most hated and neglected doctrine (p. 24), by Sonny Hernandez. (Kindle Edition)

 

[Charlie24]

The God of the Bible does not beg His creatures for anything.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Daniel 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Romans 9:10-24 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
( for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Jer. 2:1-2
"Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying,

Go and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the Lord; I remember thee, the kindness of thy youth, the love of thine espousals, when thou wentest after me in the wilderness, in a land that was not sown."

God goes on giving Jeremiah the words, begging Israel to turn back to Him, the end result-- spiritual death in the direction they are going.

God does not beg in the NT, Why? His Mercy and Grace has been poured out on man at the Cross some 2000 years ago, when Christ poured out His Blood for us.

No more begging,

Acts 17:30-31
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."