Does God Always Get His Way With Man?

[Charlie24]

I have posted I am not a Calvinist, so why did not indicate Reformed Theology just can't understand the power of the gospel. Are you implying [rather than clearly stating] the gospel's divine power is to supernaturally enable the lost to believe? If so, your claim is not found in scripture, but once again has been read into the text.

You cited 1 Corinthians 1:18, but did not indicate what you think it means.

Let me tell you what I think it means. Your translation has "them that perish" but the Greek grammar is in the Present, Middle, Participle form - which says the person is acting upon himself or herself, currently causing the demise. Thus if you are rejecting the gospel, your action is causing your death. No supernatural enablement is suggested. Next, your translation has "us which are saved" but the Greek grammar is in "Present, Passive, Participle" form - which says someone [God in this case] is saving the person. Again, God's independent action is not said to be dependent on the person being enabled to believe. On the other hand, our belief in the power of God, God's omnipotent power, under-girds our complete faith in and devotion to the gospel of Christ. We believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

Simply put, Van, it's the power of the preaching of Gospel that brings the lost to Christ, not some predetermined decree of God by His choice.

The Baptists place the preaching of the Gospel at the top of the list when many others place it on a shelf.

I don't know where you stand in the midst of all this, I just making a general assessment of what I'm seeing here!

 

[DaveXR650]

Here's you:

There is no hope in Calvinistic doctrines because faith and hope is a tandem team in the scriptures of truth and faith is a principle that 99.3% of the population of the world cannot have by the decree of God himself.

Here's John Owen:
This is the language of the Gospel, of all that the Lord Christ
did or suffered, which is recorded therein; this is the divine
testimony of the "three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost;" and of the three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood;" all give
their joint testimony, that the Lord Christ is ready to receive all sinners that come to him.

JD. The above is a direct quote from Owen's "Meditations and Discourses concerning the Glory of Christ".

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It seems you're acknowledging the correct things but placing the power of the Gospel on a shelf.

1 Cor. 1:18
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

"The preaching of the Gospel is what breaks the barriers and it seems Reformed Theology just can't understand that!

Please do not confuse @Van's writings with Reformed theology. They are the polar opposite, as he himself will agree.
Your post rather suggests that you don't know what Reformed theology is, and that you are mixing Calvin up with his nutty younger brother Hypercalvin. Most of the greatest preachers and missionaries in history have been Calvinistic..

 

[Van]

Simply put, Van, it's the power of the preaching of Gospel that brings the lost to Christ, not some predetermined decree of God by His choice.

The Baptists place the preaching of the Gospel at the top of the list when many others place it on a shelf.

I don't know where you stand in the midst of all this, I just making a general assessment of what I'm seeing here!

For the second time, you are railing against Calvin, seemingly unable to grasp my view is akin with Calvinism.

You say you do not know where I stand, but I have been explicit. The post you replied to opened with I am not a Calvinist, but you still do not know where I stand?

 

[Charlie24]

Please do not confuse @Van's writings with Reformed theology. They are the polar opposite, as he himself will agree.
Your post rather suggests that you don't know what Reformed theology is, and that you are mixing Calvin up with his nutty younger brother Hypercalvin. Most of the greatest preachers and missionaries in history have been Calvinistic..

Reformed theology is a broad stroke of the brush, I realize that.

I'm a fundamentalist/dispensationalist, the very opposite of Reformed covenant theology.

I'm in the feeling out process here of who is who and what is what.

To be honest I didn't expect to face this on a Baptist Forum, but here I am, working my way through it.

 

[Van]

Please do not confuse @Van's writings with Reformed theology. They are the polar opposite, as he himself will agree.
Your post rather suggests that you don't know what Reformed theology is, and that you are mixing Calvin up with his nutty younger brother Hypercalvin. Most of the greatest preachers and missionaries in history have been Calvinistic..

Not exactly polar opposite, but certainty different. I support salvation is by God alone, and Once saved, Always saved.
But the biggies are the biblical doctrine of election being chosen individually during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. Christ dying for all humanity, becoming the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. The Lost being able in their fallen unregenerate condition to seek God and trust in Christ.

 

[Charlie24]

Not exactly polar opposite, but certainty different. I support salvation is by God alone, and Once saved, Always saved.
But the biggies are the biblical doctrine of election being chosen individually during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. Christ dying for all humanity, becoming the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity. The Lost being able in their fallen unregenerate condition to seek God and trust in Christ.

Exactly what does the "doctrine of election" mean to you Van. If you answer this question I'll know exactly who you are.

 

[Van]

Exactly what does is the "doctrine of election" to you Van. If you answer this question I'll know exactly who you are.

God chooses [elects] individuals during their lifetime for salvation by transferring them spiritually into Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness. Thus a conditional election, not unconditional. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

In order to understand the biblical mandate for individual election during our lifetime, you must consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says once we were not a people chosen for God's own possession. Once we had not received mercy, so we had to be chosen after we existed, thus during our lifetime. Foreseen this and foreseen that is precluded by the passage.

Next, you must understand Ephesians 1:4, which teaches God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. If that election cannot be individual, then it must be corporate, God chose a type of individual as the target group of His redemption plan. When He chose His Redeemer individually, He necessarily chose corporately the believers Christ would redeem. Thus He chose us, those redeemed during our lifetime, corporately when He chose His Redeemer before creation.

 

[Charlie24]

God chooses [elects] individuals during their lifetime for salvation by transferring them spiritually into Christ based on crediting their faith as righteousness. Thus a conditional election, not unconditional. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

In order to understand the biblical mandate for individual election during our lifetime, you must consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says once we were not a people chosen for God's own possession. Once we had not received mercy, so we had to be chosen after we existed, thus during our lifetime. Foreseen this and foreseen that is precluded by the passage.

Next, you must understand Ephesians 1:4, which teaches God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. If that election cannot be individual, then it must be corporate, God chose a type of individual as the target group of His redemption plan. When He chose His Redeemer individually, He necessarily chose corporately the believers Christ would redeem. Thus He chose us, those redeemed during our lifetime, corporately when He chose His Redeemer before creation.

I agree and disagree!

Before the foundation of the world God knew man would fall in his God-given free will.

The Godhead devised a plan, The Word, Jesus Christ would bring man back into fellowship with the Father through the sacrifice of Himself on the Cross.

God chose faith in this sacrifice as the means to bring about that restored fellowship.

It's God's plan of salvation that's been predetermined for mankind! "Many are called, but few are chosen."

The chosen/elect are those who have of their own free will chosen to accept God's plan, His sacrifice.

God has called all of mankind to accept His sacrifice, but only a few will choose to accept it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To be honest I didn't expect to face this on a Baptist Forum, but here I am, working my way through it.

Really? You didn't expect Reformed Baptists on a Baptist forum?
Particular or Reformed Baptists go back at least to the first part of the 17th Century, and include perhaps the two most famous Baptists - John Bunyan and Charles Spurgeon. They also include two of the earliest foreign missionaries, William Carey and Adoniram Judson. Many people think of William Tyndale as a sort of proto-Baptist. If he was, he was a Calvinistic one, before Calvin ever set pen to paper! See my signature.

You are very welcome on this forum - don't let me chase you away! If we all agreed with each other, there would be nothing to discuss.

 

[37818]

. . . and it seems Reformed Theology just can't understand that!

Is there a specific difficulty you have in mind?

While I personally disagree with it's Calvinism in general. I do hold to a Biblical depravity of mankind, Genesis 3:22. And God who saves, keeps us, John 10:28.
I agree with the five solas.

I see the main difficulty to be the notion that regeneration precedes faith. Since faith is essential to one's knowledge of anything. One cannot know to be true anything one cannot believe.

 

[kyredneck]

Is there a specific difficulty you have in mind?

While I personally disagree with it's Calvinism in general. I do hold to a Biblical depravity of mankind, Genesis 3:22. And God who saves, keeps us, John 10:28.
I agree with the five solas.

I see the main difficulty to be the notion that regeneration precedes faith. Since faith is essential to one's knowledge of anything. One cannot know to be true anything one cannot believe.

It's clear that you don't "hold to a Biblical depravity of mankind".

 

[Charlie24]

Really? You didn't expect Reformed Baptists on a Baptist forum?
Particular or Reformed Baptists go back at least to the first part of the 17th Century, and include perhaps the two most famous Baptists - John Bunyan and Charles Spurgeon. They also include two of the earliest foreign missionaries, William Carey and Adoniram Judson. Many people think of William Tyndale as a sort of proto-Baptist. If he was, he was a Calvinistic one, before Calvin ever set pen to paper! See my signature.

You are very welcome on this forum - don't let me chase you away! If we all agreed with each other, there would be nothing to discuss.

The Baptists have strong Calvinist roots, but have become much more conservative with the Fundamental movement. That's the world I live in, under a rock you might say.

There seems to be so many somewhere between Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology. It's not as easy to pick and sort as one may think.

 

[Van]

What Charlie posted.
Van's response in Red.

I agree and disagree!

Before the foundation of the world God knew man would fall in his God-given free will. Agree

The Godhead devised a plan, The Word, Jesus Christ would bring man back into fellowship with the Father through the sacrifice of Himself on the Cross. Agree, this plan was devised before the foundation of the world.

God chose faith in this sacrifice as the means to bring about that restored fellowship Agreed, validity of the faith being determined by God.

It's God's plan of salvation that's been predetermined for mankind! "Many are called, but few are chosen." Agreed

The chosen/elect are those who have of their own free will chosen to accept God's plan, His sacrifice. Disagree!!!! The chosen/elect are those whose faith, chosen by their own volition, has been credited as righteousness by God.

God has called all of mankind to accept His sacrifice, but only a few will choose to accept it. Agreed, and fewer still will be be chosen by God out of those who chose to accept the gospel.

 

[kyredneck]

It's not as easy to pick and sort as one may think.

Ah, forget what others do or say, find out for yourself.

 

[Charlie24]

Is there a specific difficulty you have in mind?

While I personally disagree with it's Calvinism in general. I do hold to a Biblical depravity of mankind, Genesis 3:22. And God who saves, keeps us, John 10:28.
I agree with the five solas.

I see the main difficulty to be the notion that regeneration precedes faith. Since faith is essential to one's knowledge of anything. One cannot know to be true anything one cannot believe.

The process of regeneration into a new creature in Christ is very much in question on these boards!

That is what slapped me down when I first came here. Recovery is slow but sure.

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, but I'll sort it out.

 

[JD731]

Here's you:

Here's John Owen:
This is the language of the Gospel, of all that the Lord Christ
did or suffered, which is recorded therein; this is the divine
testimony of the "three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost;" and of the three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood;" all give
their joint testimony, that the Lord Christ is ready to receive all sinners that come to him.

JD. The above is a direct quote from Owen's "Meditations and Discourses concerning the Glory of Christ".

One passage like this really says nothing about Owen and what he believes because in John 6 the Reformed believe and teach that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. Obviously, if they must be drawn by the Father to come tn be saved, those not drawn by the Father will not/can not come.
Now, if Owen believes and teaches that he is not the subject of John 6 in any way, then his statement in 1 John 5 will have credibility. Otherwise it has none in the context of our conversation.
John 6 is limited to the lost sheep of the house (family) of Israel to whom he came and to whom he ministered at his first coming. The drawing of the Father was not by some ethereal, other worldly drawing but was by an instrument called the Old Testament by which those who believed the promises of his coming contained therein would believe and would come. These lost sheep were scattered on a thousand hills because of the careless shepherds of yesteryear who did not love the sheep.

The word draw is not used once in the 13 letters of Paul to the gentiles because the OT was not the instrument of evangelizing gentiles because God did not write it to us and he made no promises to gentiles that he would save them. He did it by grace after the payment was made and he does not draw us to Christ, he invites us to come to him for reconciliation to himself through Christ.

Whosoever WILL, let him come and take the water of life freely.

You and Owen and your buddies deny the will and thus deny the scriptures, at least that scripture.

 

[37818]

It's clear that you don't "hold to a Biblical depravity of mankind".

Liar.

. I do hold to a Biblical depravity of mankind, Genesis 3:22.

 

[Charlie24]

What Charlie posted.
Van's response in Red.

I agree and disagree!

Before the foundation of the world God knew man would fall in his God-given free will. Agree

The Godhead devised a plan, The Word, Jesus Christ would bring man back into fellowship with the Father through the sacrifice of Himself on the Cross. Agree, this plan was devised before the foundation of the world.

God chose faith in this sacrifice as the means to bring about that restored fellowship Agreed, validity of the faith being determined by God.

It's God's plan of salvation that's been predetermined for mankind! "Many are called, but few are chosen." Agreed

The chosen/elect are those who have of their own free will chosen to accept God's plan, His sacrifice. Disagree!!!! The chosen/elect are those whose faith, chosen by their own volition, has been credited as righteousness by God.

God has called all of mankind to accept His sacrifice, but only a few will choose to accept it. Agreed, and fewer still will be be chosen by God out of those who chose to accept the gospel.

Where you see us disagreeing, I see us agreeing.

Man choosing of his own free will to accept God's sacrifice is by faith. So I didn't place the word "faith" in that sentence, you disagree?

The foundation of my post is "faith." How is it that you can't see that?

 

[Charlie24]

It's clear that you don't "hold to a Biblical depravity of mankind".

I have found out for myself, that's how I know we have very little in common.