37818
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Does God Always Get His Way With Man?
- Thread starter Charlie24
- Start date
No, it wasn't nice! That's what I get for assuming.
Another one of my many mistakes on the boards that I mentioned.
You are correct in calling me out, and I sincerely apologize for making that mistake!
My life experiences in recent years have driven my theology far from where it began. Now I fully believe God fully controls my path. He set my way in front of me and my life is His, not mine. My will has no effect on His will.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
I would say that for purposes of discussion it is fair to do that.
I don't think they were officially using the acronym TULIP in Owen's day but yes, he in his writings can be found to defend all the points. In fact, he is still credited with have the go to defense of limited atonement in his "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ".
I don't think so because, and this is where it gets difficult, preaching, at the point where people are hearing it demands a response using your free will and your rational capacity. All of the theology, like the work of the Holy Spirit in enlightening or even regenerating the person, or election or predestination, do not over ride the truth of the person actually deciding to come to Christ. If you would just keep this in mind you can benefit from and enjoy fellowship with Calvinists without having to agree with all of their theology.
And so this is why I would challenge you in a friendly way to go ahead and read some of Spurgeon's sermons. I bet you would find a lot you like because Spurgeon had that balance which I think is why fundamental Baptists usually like him. You are indeed under no obligation to agree with everything he said. Same with Owen. As I said before, he wrote the most famous defense of limited atonement and I don't agree with limited atonement. I still find his writing useful, just like I find Wesley useful even though his sermon 128 on Free Grace borders on being a vicious attack on Calvinism.
Like I said before, these systematic theologies and confessions serve to keep you from drifting too far but you are under no obligation to subscribe to every point of them. The guys themselves like Owen, often preached like they did not feel any such obligation themselves. Owen is a little bit hard to read but you would find a lot you like in him too. One thing I found was that growing up reading a King James Bible really gives you an advantage when you go to read the Puritans because of the language patterns you are already familiar with.
I think it depends on the context.
God desires that none perish but all come to faith. God didnt desire sacrifices of Israrl but obedience. So God does not always get what He desires in terms of human obedience.
But God works all things for the good. And He is glorified even as evil exists. So God's plan will be accomplished.
We can't think of God as a spoiled child who gets every desire in terms of human behavior.
But God is sovereign and everything will work according to His plan.
Yes, Easy Believism is a total misrepresentation of Scripture.
In order to understand the biblical mandate for individual election during our lifetime, you must consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says once we were not a people chosen for God's own possession. Once we had not received mercy, so we had to be chosen after we existed, thus during our lifetime. Foreseen this and foreseen that is precluded by the passage.
The people who are "individually chosen" become a people for God's own possession, before that they are not a people. The passage does not say that their election resulted in an earthly nation, but rather a spiritual people, part of the body of Christ.
Thus the passage precludes being individually chosen before the foundation of the world, because if so we would have always been a people, never not a people, we would have always received mercy, not having received mercy.
It is a lock.
If his call is credited by God alone, rather than something the person did which automatically saved the person.
That passage is not about us!
1 Peter 2:11-12
11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
1 Peter 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
There have been no gentile sheep. This is the Northern kingdom.
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I am sure you are familiar with the standard deflection to nullify God's word, claim it does not mean what it says. Just read 1 Peter 2:1-2, the "you" being addressed are the saved. It is about all those saved.
In order to understand the biblical mandate for individual election during our lifetime, you must consider 1 Peter 2:9-10 which says once we were not a people chosen for God's own possession. Once we had not received mercy, so we had to be chosen after we existed, thus during our lifetime. Foreseen this and foreseen that is precluded by the passage.
The people who are "individually chosen" become a people for God's own possession, before that they are not a people. The passage does not say that their election resulted in an earthly nation, but rather a spiritual people, part of the body of Christ.
Thus the passage precludes being individually chosen before the foundation of the world, because if so we would have always been a people, never not a people, we would have always received mercy, not having received mercy.
It is a lock.
I think there is an "if" there. God does control our path, if we don't grab the reins.
What I mean is we can still sin, but God does not make us sin. Paul put it well when he said that the good he does is not him but Christ in Him.
We are called to obedience and trust God with the outcome.
Peter is not writing to a church or churches. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles does that. Peter is writing to the strangers scatted abroad in a designated area which he names. I have always wondered why salutations does not matter to people.Peter addresses these people as a nation and as those who are different than gentiles.This is an ethnic group. James writing to the same people calls them the 12 tribes of Israel that are scattered abroad. Why does that not register with you folks? Paul, a Benjamite was born in Cilicia, a province in this region.
These people and this time is a subject of a historical decision of God to disperse them out of their land, cutting them off from the covenants of God and considering them as not his people, choosing rather to complete his covenant promises through the nation of Judah, although in Isaiah God says this nation is even more wicked than Israel. He says in his prophecy that he will not revisit them as a nation until he first makes provision for them to be called the sons of God, which a remnant of them are in the Jewish Christian epistles. This is only possible because their Messiah, Jesus Christ, the perfect man has sacrificed himself for them and through him they can be born again individually .
Now, I would like for you to read this portion taken from a prophecy of Hosea some 700 years earlier than Peter while these people occupied the promised land but who were perpetual sinners.I encourage you to read the whole context of Ho 1, as well as his whole prophecy. Here is the excerpt.
Ho 1:1 The word of the Lord that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.
2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the Lord.
3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.
4 And the Lord said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. (the Northern Nation)
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah (means no mercy) for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the Lord their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, (no mercy) she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: (means not my people) for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
Now watch this closely and take note of what it says;
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.(This happened during the days of Peter)
11 Then (an adverb) shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
We are not at the adverb yet. This is a prophecy of all the OT prophets and it is yet in the future or it is not true.
This generation of Jesus Christ, which ended in 70 AD was tasked to fulfill this prophecy but because of the Judaizers work they failed and God's purposes were delayed. But they were not nullified.
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We are on the same page.
Question?
Jer 3:8 KJV And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Did that bill of divorce bring forth the following condition?
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
I think this is true. God through Christ and his resurrection intended to keep forth his national promises through Judah and his spiritual promises through Israel (Peter said they were a holy priesthood) and make them one people again. Unfortunately for them, the Judaizers influenced them to return to the law in large numbers and they turned from Christ as per Hebrews 6, 2 Pet, Jude, etc. God has responded in AD 70 by ripping up Jerusalem and destroying his temple (the temple is the place of residence of God where he dwells in their midst) and during the last 2 days of God (thousand year days) both Jesus Christ and the covenanted people of God have been out of the land. They are cut off from the covenant and reckoned dead when they are out of the land and considered by God to be gentiles.
The church of Jesus Christ has taken on a distinctly gentile character since 70 AD because although it has a Jewish foundation, laid upon Christ (Eph 2:20) the building is a gentile structure since there has been nothing but gentiles in the world. All the typology of the church in the OT show Jewish men married to gentile women. There are eight altogether beginning with Rebekah and Isaac.The church is the bride of Christ and he will return for her before the wedding. God meanwhile will purify and restore his estranged wife, Israel, after the bride of Christ is taken away.
Ho 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
(the former rain is in Acts 2 - the latter rain is when a nation will be saved in a day)
4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
8 Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.
9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.
11 Also, O Judah, he hath set an harvest for thee, when I returned the captivity of my people.
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Peter 2:1-2
Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
and like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
Did anyone say Peter was writing to organizations, a church or churches? Nope. Peter was writing to the individual believers that comprised his audience.
Folks, the actual effort is to claim that born anew believers were always a people and had always received mercy from before the foundation of the world. The claim is simply bogus, an effort to nullify the very word of God.
1Peter 2:9-10
But you are A CHOSEN PEOPLE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR GOD’S OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
Yes, we were corporately chosen before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4, but we were individually chosen during our lifetime on the basis of God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.
It is a lock.
I am more convinced than ever that you cannot read with comprhension. I have consistently quoted Ho 1 in connection with 1 Peter and here you are speaking into the air. Here is a verse I have quoted more than once;
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.
These are not the people of God, because of the curse but, individually, they are the sons of God when they are born again. Being born again could not happen until Jesus Christ died for sins and rose again from the dead. In case you do not know it, a person is an infant before they are a grown man.
If you ever get a Bible that you could believe were the words of God you could learn something.But it takes God's words to know truth.
1 Pet 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
These people that Peter is writing to are the concision. They are the children of Abraham through Jacob whether you like it or whether you don't.
Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
That seems pretty cut and dried to me. I don't have a clue what you think about it but you do great damage to the scriptures by writing your own Bible.
I can't think of any apostles who ever went to Europe to preach the gospel. Even Barnabas was replaced before Paul's ministry there.
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@JD731
1 Peter 1:1 YLT Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
IYO are the, "choice sojourners," chosen out of, the House of Judah the House of Israel or both and or also from the heathen?
Consider, God did choose to send Peter to Cornelius?
1 Peter 1:1 YLT Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
IYO are the, "choice sojourners," chosen out of, the House of Judah the House of Israel or both and or also from the heathen?
Consider, God did choose to send Peter to Cornelius?