Does God bluff?

Let's say he's an alien with seventeen arms, only thirteen of which can be used for cleaning rooms. Frankly, I stopped reading after "Let's say your son is paralyzed," and I'm surprised I made it that far. What are you trying to do, bore me into submission?

Take it up with PTW. I don't even know what you're talking about.

It is perfectly fair. If God bound His entire creation over to disobedience and sent us all to hell, we'd all be where we belong. The fact that God has mercy on SOME doesn't make that any less true. And your heart rendering sob-stories can't change that.

Yes, even sin.

So if it sounds inconsistent to you, that means what?

That's not logic. It is so idiotic it doesn't even rank up there with logical fallacy. God created Adam, therefore it is not the least bit logical to say Adam is the cause of everything.

God uses threats for many reasons, one of which is to influence the behavior of people. In your typical deceptive debate style, you begain with the premise "I say no" based on the example of the father/boy/room. You then swapped that with an example that poses a paradoxical situation (removing the elect's name from the book of life) in order to create artificial leverage in the argument. You're so predictable.

 

1. Touchy aren't we. No, Open Theism is a pathetic excuse to make people feel better. It is nothing more than libertarian theology masked in an ignorant God. Lost people have always wanted to believe they were the captain of their ship. Sanders, Pinnock, and the other gang of wannabe theologs are spineless, gutless, selfworshiping pagans (in my humble but accurate opinion).

2. Overly optimistic tonight also, huh?

 

Open theists believe that Christ was fully God and fully man. I don't know where this came from.

What are you talking about?

This question coming from one who said in the previous post "I am. They are going to Hell."

And where have I done that? By posting how a person is saved and saying that those who you claim are "going straight to Hell" have actually fulfilled that criteria?

I hope you understand that you are not the Judge of all, and I truly thank God for that. I imagine you will be quite overwhelmed at the number of people in Heaven. I truly hope that God places your home in the middle of a bunch of Open Theists - I, for one, would find that humourous.

 

And what can you tell us about Open Theism? How much of it do you actually know about it? From what you have posted just now, you know very little. They do not say God is ignorant at all. They are quick to say God is sovereign and most certainly do not worship themselves. Your description is merely raining coals over your own head.

 

Scott, try to follow the discussion. They are going to hell because they have so redefined God, that it isn't the same God. Understand now?

Also, I base their path to hell on their theology, not on personality.

Finally, I will accept whatever mission field the Lord places me in. Open Theists need the Lord also. Are you against this?

 

Our definition of God does not save us, which is what I read you saying here. That is where you are missing it. The blood of Christ saves us. By believing in Jesus Christ, one becomes saved. That is, unless you can provide Scripture to the contrary.

 

You can't make up who Jesus is. If you do not believe in the Christ of the Scriptures, you are lost. It is just another idol. Haven't you read where Paul warned of those who preacher "another" Jesus?

 

They're not believing in another Christ. That's what you are unwilling to accept. Some people do not believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. That doesn't affect their salvatoin one way or another. Others think that the Gospels were written by four independent people; some say that three of them came from Q. This doesn't affect their salvation one way or another. Some people that GOd ordains people to Hell. This doesn't affect their salvation.

Jesus Christ saves. Theology doesn't. You would be wise to remember that.

 

They do believe in another Jesus. That just proves your ignorance of the issue. They believe in a God that does not with absolute certainty know all things.

Btw, if Christ was not born of a virgin, he isn't the Christ. That might be difficult for you to grasp, but it is true nonetheless.

The Jesus of Scripture saves. Any other Jesus is just another idol. Apparently you have no problem with idolatry.

 

Does God bluff?

For what reason would omniscient, omnipotent, almighty God ever need to bluff anyone or anything? He owns (in every sence of the word) it all!

 

I know the issue very well. I have read several works from open theists, including Rice, Pinnock, and Boyd. The believe in a God that has exhaustive foreknowledge - a God that knows all of the possibilities of man's free will. He does know all things, but his way of knowing is different from mine and yours.

I don't see why? Ever done a word study on 'almah and betulah in the OT? Some people see that the Messiah would be born of a young woman, not necessarily a virgin. This doesn't forfeit their salvation. I'm not sure why you think it does.

Great ad hominem. Too bad it doesn't wash. What would happen if, say, your brand of Calvinism isn't exactly right? Are you "close enough" for salvation? How far can a person be from your theology to really be saved? CAn an Arminian be saved? A Hyper-Calvinist? If you're so confident on other people's salvation, let us see you answer these questoins - How far is too far?

 

Whether you believe God intentionally set the inclination of one or more of His creation to sin, or you believe sin was an inevitable consequence that God simply permitted, you can't get around this obvious conclusion: If God, through creation, is the ultimate cause of everything, then God is the ultimate cause of sin. Even if you view sin as something God only permitted, God had to know it would occur, and He could have avoided allowing it to occur by intentionally refusing to create anything. So God is the ultimate cause no matter how you look at it.

Your avoiding the argument again Nick, we are all expressing opinions here, the fact you won't deal with this particular one is quite revealing. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, let's play your way. Everything you say sounds inconsistent to me. Prove it isn't.

Direct cause: God indwells a person and affects their behavior through direct influence.

Direct cause: God supernaturally whips up a tornado to destroy a building in order to make His power known in a specific and dramatic way.

Indirect cause: God knows in advance that a person will murder someone and (for whatever good reason known to God) chooses in advance NOT to prevent it, thus foreordaining that it will happen.

Indirect cause: God knows a tornado will happen, and allows it.

Yes, that's ONE reason, but not the ONLY reason. Take a look at Luke for an example of an "idle" threat that is actually part of an act of encouragement:

Take a remedial reading class and then come back and read the explanations already given. If you don't want to accept them, fine. But stop asking the same questions over and over again. We've answered them.

I'll be glad to. Casting light on darkness is not only my Christian duty, in your case, it's fun.

 

For starters, you might think about reading the Bible. It tells you which it is. The very name of Jesus tells you. Romans 8: "Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." There you have the order and the direct action. God predestined, called, justified, glorified. That is active and direct. If that doesn't do the trick, read Revelation 7: "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" Find me a verse that says "Sin belongs to our God!" and I'll be willing to concede that God could be the direct cause of sin as well as the indirect cause.

Because scripture says otherwise, and that trumps speculation.

 

God places before man life and death, then tells us to choose life. He does not choose for us.

That is just a starting point for the myraid choices that man must face and decide for himself, including what each and every individual man will believe.

God is the one who establishes EVERY option for man, but God does not make each choice for every individual man. He leaves choice up to man.

God, and Satan, "work" to persuade man in his choices. Satan has an advantage among men because sin is usually pleasurable, and disobedience is often "exciting" in a spiritual sense. Disobedience "hightens" the human flesh senses, that makes the hair on the nape of the neck stand up and "tingle". I speak from experience having oft been disobedient.

I testify to you that the Holy Spirit is also a relentless "nag" in convicting me of my sins. I get no rest while under such conviction, until I confess my sins and receive forgiveness.

Does God bluff? NO! Human life is His "game", played on His "court", according to His "rules". The better we understand His rules, the better we play the game. Therefore there is no reason for him to bluff. He tells us that if we sin, He pays us our wage in death (in His time, not ours). No bluff there! He tells us that if we live according to His rules, that He looks upon us with pleasure, translated "life abundant". If we violate is rules, he looks upon us with disfavor, translated "gives us over to our own lusts" with all their consequences.

God does not bluff!

 

What can we imagine the wrath of God shall do?

Bro. Dallas

 

1. Touchy aren't we. No, Open Theism is a pathetic excuse to make people feel better. </font>[/QUOTE]That’s a new one… I’m not sure why you think it makes people feel better.

I embrace it because I believe it to be biblical… I’ve had my views since 1985-1988 when I began studying the Bible extensively on my own and read what the Bible actually said instead of theologians and systematic theology. When I started reading theologians while earning my theology degree, I knew what to accept and reject based on my knowledge of the biblical material (I had read it cover to cover in several translations multiple times). Only within the last few years have I heard the term “Open Theism” and the reports that it is allegedly heresy.

Your opinion is neither humble or remotely accurate.

Yes. I still believe you are part of the Kingdom even though your words often tell a different story.