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Does God bluff?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, Apr 1, 2003.

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  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Do not question the salvation of other individuals in this forum. If you would like to make a well worded case why a particular theology (such as open theism for example) is outside of orthodoxy, please do so. If you can explain your reasons why it brings doubt about one's eternal state, you may do so very carefully, but do not make statements about individuals and their spiritual condition.
     
    #41 Pastor Larry, Apr 2, 2003
  2. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Anyone who would agree to enforce such a rule must be a legalist who depends on works for salvation, therefore you must not be saved.

    Just kidding... ;)
     
    #42 npetreley, Apr 2, 2003
  3. William C

    William C New Member

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    #43 William C, Apr 2, 2003
  4. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    You really need to stop telling me what I've given as interpretations when I haven't given them. It is YOUR interpretation to say that "predestine" is equivalent to "foreordain". (And if I felt like you were worth the trouble, I'm sure I could find the post where you said exactly that.)

    But I never said any such thing. I believe the two terms "predestine" and "foreordain" convey different meanings, and I've said so. So your assumption that I have "interpreted" them to be equivalent is false, and renders the rest of your post meaningless. Furthermore, YOUR equivocation on the term makes the rest of the Romans 8 passage turn into nonsense.

    Once again, you have built your entire argument on logical fallacies and deceptive debate tactics. In this case, it is equivocation (one of your favorite deceptive debate tactics) coupled with putting words in my mouth (another one of your favorite deceptive debate tactics).
     
    #44 npetreley, Apr 2, 2003
  5. William C

    William C New Member

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    Wow there big fella. I'm sorry I thought predestined meant foreordain:

    Lexicon Results for proorizo (Strong's 4309)
    Greek for 4309
    Pronunciation Guide
    proorizo {pro-or-id'-zo}
    TDNT Reference Root Word
    TDNT - 5:456,728 from 4253 and 3724
    Part of Speech v
    Outline of Biblical Usage

    1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
    2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
    3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 6
    AV - predestinate 4, determine before 1, ordain 1; 6
    Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

    I honestly don't remember you telling me you thought of them separately, I'm not saying you didn't, I just don't recall. It's difficult debating with you because you like to introduce new terms or change definations like "indirect cause" verse "direct cause" etc.

    Granted, sometimes debate has a lot more to do with defining the terms than covering this issues and we kind of skipped the definiation process. I wasn't intending to misrepresent you, can you explain to me your defination of foreordain as opposed to predestine?

    Thanks.
     
    #45 William C, Apr 2, 2003
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I define something as "foreordained" when it is something God foresees and deliberately permits. I define something as "predestined" when it is something God determines in advance will happen because He actively directs it that way.

    These are my definitions, however, not biblical definitions. The word "foreordain" only appears once that I can find in the NKJV, and in that case it would have been better translated as foreknown (proginosko). I'll be glad to use another word that better communicates predestination by God's permissive will, assuming you know of one.

    None of this matters, however. It is obvious from the context that the word "predestined" in Romans 8:30 cannot be one of permissive will.

    The typical arminian fallacy would be to pretend "foreknew" means something other than what the Greek word indicates -- intimate knowledge of a person -- and replace that definition with the opinion that it means that God foreknows who will respond to the Gospel.

    But that is not only an incorrect translation of the word, it doesn't remove election from the passage. Even with that error, the rest of the text clearly says God does not predestine, call, justify, or glorify everyone -- he only predestines, calls, justifies and glorifies those He foreknows. So all you've said is that God only calls those He knows in advance will respond, which contradicts all the arminian assertions that passages like John 3:16 prove God calls everyone equally. So you end up mangling two passages in the Bible for the price of one.
     
    #46 npetreley, Apr 3, 2003
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Is Paul the only Apostle that addresses the issue of foreknowledge?
     
    #47 Yelsew, Apr 3, 2003
  8. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    #48 Frogman, Apr 3, 2003
  9. William C

    William C New Member

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    This is what makes it difficult to communicate these issues. I usually use the most orthodox undertanding of the biblical language while assuming that you share that common knowledge. Your lack of common understanding of these terms leads you to think I'm practicing some new deceptive debate tactic. I can assure you that my thoughts are not new nor are the methods I'm using to proclaim them. I'm not trying to be mean to you but even by your own admission you have not read much of the historical writings of Calvin and Arminiaus and therefore, IMO, I think some of my thoughts seems new or unusual to you and thus deceptive. I think if you read some of these historical works you would see that much of what I say has been debated back and forth for centuries, but have not been fully explored on this board (in recent times) mostly because of Arminians lack of knowledge of their own system.

    I'm on my way out the door, but I will address your other issues as soon as I can.
     
    #49 William C, Apr 3, 2003
  10. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I see. Like your orthodox understanding of words like "all", "hear" and "die". ;)

    Boy, you are so bent out of shape about having your tactics exposed you'll say anything. Mr. Bill, let me give you a hint about the right way to start to restore your credibility. Start caring about the truth.
     
    #50 npetreley, Apr 3, 2003
  11. William C

    William C New Member

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    Nick, I love ya, but you are incorrigible.
     
    #51 William C, Apr 3, 2003
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Define incorrigible and use it in a sentence, please.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #52 Frogman, Apr 4, 2003
  13. William C

    William C New Member

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    I'm too lazy to get up and get my Websters so I give it my best shot from memory:

    Incorrigible - adj. Unable to be reasoned with or changed for the better.

    The criminal had been in and out of prison so often that the board found him to be incorrigible.
     
    #53 William C, Apr 4, 2003
  14. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Thanks, that was mighty neighborly of ya...would it be incorrect to say a synonymous idea would be 'totally depraved'? :D

    With no connotations as to Npetreley's character, but in view of the topics found throughout this forum.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #54 Frogman, Apr 4, 2003
  15. William C

    William C New Member

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    Actually I have said that some Calvinists are "hardened" into Calvinism, in that they have so made up their minds and consumed their lives with this doctrine that they couldn't see any other view objectively unless Christ Himself knocked on their door and showed them.

    Even then I'm not sure a Calvinist would get up and let him in, they'd probably just figure that if he wanted in he would let himself in. [​IMG]
     
    #55 William C, Apr 4, 2003
  16. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Why would you figure otherwise?

    Still enough Calvinist there to want to try and come out 'ain't there'.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #56 Frogman, Apr 4, 2003
  17. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Define incorrigible and use it in a sentence, please.

    Bro. Dallas     </font>[/QUOTE]Totally Depraved seems to be an accurate synonym for incorrigible.
     
    #57 Yelsew, Apr 4, 2003
  18. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Oh, I see. You don't believe in total depravity, but you'll make an exception in my case. ;)
     
    #58 npetreley, Apr 4, 2003
  19. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Don't take it personal brother. I thought this immediately upon reading the response as well, then I realized it was Yelsew, I have seen him contradict almost everything he has posted.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #59 Frogman, Apr 5, 2003
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    I'm not the least bit offended. I rather enjoyed the irony, actually. ;)
     
    #60 npetreley, Apr 5, 2003
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