Does God Change His Mind?!

[doulous]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
I hate to nit pick, but I have to weigh in.

Saying God cannot change His mind is limiting God.

Saying God does not, or will not change His mind is only speaking about His nature.

You show me in scripture how your statement can be backed up. I want to see how God not being able to change His mind is only regarding His nature.

Ante up.

 

[DeeJay]

Doulous

I was not comenting on the subject, just the argument itself.

Saying somebody can not do something is different then saying they will not do something.

Sorry for the confusion. I have not made up my mind yet on where I stand but I tend to think that God does not change his mind. If he did then the original course of action was not the perfict action. Or He did not have all the information he needed to make the choice. This can not be the case.

 

[doulous]

DeeJay,

No confusion. You said (and I quote):

Saying God does not, or will not change His mind is only speaking about His nature.

If you're going to make a statement like this you need to be able to support it biblically. If it nothing more than opinion, I suggest stating so in your post. Something like, "This is my opinion. I do not have scriptural support." At least that way know what it is.

And...no need to apologize.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Some comments on the Christianese thread indicate a belief that God changes His mind. I've been through this before with an Open Theist and passages in scripture that indicate God changes his mind can be explained as anthropomorphic.

Sure, we can explain away things in scripture by claiming anthropomorphism, but that doesn’t make it go away.

If God changes his mind, it means he is not omniscient.

Says who?

If God changes his mind, then He creates a new future reality. Furthermore, since God is active and working within His creation, he can bring His plans to fruition and keep any promises/covenants He has made.

Don't you think God knew Hezekiah would ask for another 15 yrs.?

Probably.

If God changed his mind, it means he did not know this.

Not necessarily. Perhaps there were many options before God (neither one of us has God’s perspective!) and the act of Hezekiah asking moved God with compassion to select a different option.

For God to change his mind entails a view of God as needing to change his plans.

“Needing”? You’re the only one who thinks that God “needs” to do anything. God is a Person (the one in Whose image we are made), and God is not bound by anyone or anything except His own character.

Think of all the things God had planned that were changed with Hezekiah getting 15 more years (like Hezekiah's wicked son)!

God is great enough to deal with that… God is not harried or alarmed by change.

It also means God would not know the future…

Says who?

If you understand the nature of time as an unbroken linear series of events and choices to which we are all fated (yet God is making us march through it anyway), then you’re being consistent. If you do not perfectly understand the nature of time (which I think is every human on and orbiting the earth), then you can’t make that assertion.

When people prayed and asked God to change his mind, they were being aligned to God's will…

Yes, I agree.

[ God's will ] … was already set, not the other way around.

Says who? The scripture teaches that God’s nature and character does not change, but clearly teaches that God is moved with compassion.

God is not influenced by us.

Wow! That’s one of the most unbiblical things I’ve ever read on BaptistBoard.

Jesus clearly taught that God is influenced in prayer (Matthew 7:8-10, Luke 18:1-7).

I have to go with Jesus on this one.

…If He is, then He is not a perfect, ominiscient God who can know the future.

Says who? Your limited and very flawed theology?

I’m not trying to be harsh, because your view of God is very popular and is taught in seminaries, from pulpits and in popular books throughout the world. Unfortunately, it is a theological model of God that does not take into account the plain teaching of scripture.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I notice that so far, none of the 3 from the other thread have posted here. I hope they changed their mind about this!

I've been away from the computer this weekend, and no one bothered telling me that my post in the other thread was being used as grist for a discussion.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by J.D.:
Marcia, good thread and a very important subject. … This has to do with open theism. … Arminius would have never taught that one day Almighty God scratched his head and thought "what am I going to do with these rebels?", and in confusion and frustration, God changed his mind about the whole thing.

“… and in confusion and frustration, God changed his mind…”

I certainly don’t believe that. Who has claimed that God has ever been confused? Regarding frustration, I think an argument can be made from the OT prophets that God is been frustrated with His people, but I wouldn’t extend that to the idea that God’s plans are frustrated.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
You guys are missing the point. When God says He does not do something (like change) then it doesn't matter whether we think there is a limit on His omnipotence.

[QB]

Malachi 3:6 6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change;

The wider context of this verse clearly demonstrates that God (through the prophet) is telling His people that neither His holiness or His compassion changes. In other words, His character is inalterable. But since God is Living Person, and not simply a force, therefore God has the ability to act (that is, change).

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

The context of this verse clearly demonstrates that James is teaching that God’s goodness (again, His character) does not change – there is no diminishment or variation in His goodness.

These two verses make it clear that God does not and cannot change.

Only if you come to those verses with that conclusion already established.

There is no variation.

…in His character.

He is the same yesterday, today and forever.

His character is the same yesterday, today and forever.

For God to change would mean that there must be some defect in Him that He needs to correct, for that is the only reason for changing.

Really? Where did you get that idea? (Hint: Greek philosophy)

You’re working with pagan Greek concepts of perfection, not Hebrew concepts of completion and Person.

-----
For a moment, let’s assume that your concept of God is true and that all things are already fixed…

When were those decisions made? Maybe you say, “Before the foundation of the world?” Okay, then was God not always unchanging? If you say “Yes”, then you have a concept of God that portrays Him as a paralyzed deity, locked in a series of events that He did not determine – which begs the question, who did? If you say “No”, then you’ve just disproved your assertion that God never changes. If you take the coward’s way out and say that it is some sort of “mystery”, then you have no real basis to condemn anyone else’s viewpoint since you can’t claim to have any real basis for your viewpoint.

No matter what you think that might do to what you know about Him, the Bible is clear.

Yep. God occasionally changes His mind.

 

[J.D.]

If God, or for that matter, anyone, changes his mind, is there any other motive for the change of mind other than confusion or frustration?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Amen, Baptist Believer!

Well said!!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

J.D.,

yes, there can be other motives.

I can say I am going to mow the grass today, but then decide I will wait until tomorrow.

God can change His mind for reasons other than frustration or confusion.

We know God was certainly frustrated in the story of the Flood account, for He said, 'My spirit will not always strive with man... man's days will be 120 years.'

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by J.D.:
If God, or for that matter, anyone, changes his mind, is there any other motive for the change of mind other than confusion or frustration?

Perhaps the creation of an alternative good or opportunities to extend compassion.

 

[J.D.]

I don't think God is frustrated, but I sure am. I don't know how rippon and calvi and doulous and whatever etc etc can have the patience to keep mixing it up with you guys every day.

If God is changing His mind, then assurance and security of salvation is a big lie. You have nothing on which to trust but God's word, His promises. If God changed his mind about pre-flood humanity, what is there to say he won't change his mind about [B}US[/B]???

Don't you see the implication of what you're saying? If God KNOWS the future, it can not change, else he would not know it. And if God has not DETERMINED the future, then who or what did? Man? Chance?

Does the thought that even a little bit of calvinist teaching may be correct scare you guys so much that you're willing to run head-long into patently false doctrine - open theism, pelagianism, denial of original sin?

Amazing.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
If God changes his mind, then He creates a new future reality. Furthermore, since God is active and working within His creation, he can bring His plans to fruition and keep any promises/covenants He has made.

So does that mean the previous "future reality" is somehow not good enough? That God did not plan right or that things happened to change his mind that he did not know about in advance?

Perhaps there were many options before God (neither one of us has God’s perspective!) and the act of Hezekiah asking moved God with compassion to select a different option.

Options? Why does God need options? He would only need options if his plans were not perfect or if he was surprised by something.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Think of all the things God had planned that were changed with Hezekiah getting 15 more years (like Hezekiah's wicked son)!

God is great enough to deal with that… God is not harried or alarmed by change.
</font>[/QUOTE]I know, because God knows the future! It's only if he doesn't that he would be surprised by "change." But those who say God changes his mind beg the question of why he does so, and the only logical responses are that 1) God does not know the future; 2) God did not have a perfect plan from eternity (i.e., makes mistakes)

The scripture teaches that God’s nature and character does not change, but clearly teaches that God is moved with compassion.

God is merciful and compassionate, but if he changes plans because he is moved by compassion, you have put him in time. This means he did not know that x was going to happen to move him to compassion, so he changed his plans accordingly, or that he planned wrongly and had to re-adjust his plans according to being moved by compassion. God being unchanging does not make him a force or a machine because he is outside of time. He does not act from moment to moment but his acts, plans, compassion, mind, wrath on sin, etc. are all one together in concert from eternity, never conflicting, never abating according to what man does. This is part of the mystery of God and why we can't comprehend a Being who does not have to act in time, from moment to moment. Otherwise, we have a God in time who cannot know the future perfectly (which is what some Open Theist posit).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God is not influenced by us.

Wow! That’s one of the most unbiblical things I’ve ever read on BaptistBoard. </font>[/QUOTE]To say God is influenced is to say that God reacts to man, which means he is not perfect in his existence outside of man. For God to react means he is not perfect because any change means growth towards something better or worse, and that means that there is something lacking at some point.

Jesus clearly taught that God is influenced in prayer (Matthew 7:8-10, Luke 18:1-7).
I have to go with Jesus on this one.

He did not say God is influenced - he taught us to pray this way to depend on God and to realize he is compassionate. Once again, I believe this is the only way for man to understand God because he is beyond us. But as soon as we say he changes in response to prayer we have to say, "What does that imply?"

I’m not trying to be harsh, because your view of God is very popular and is taught in seminaries, from pulpits and in popular books throughout the world. Unfortunately, it is a theological model of God that does not take into account the plain teaching of scripture.

Are you an Open Theist?

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
OK, follow the logic here.

I’ll try.

1. God is perfect in all of His attributes. There is no aspect of God that is in any way inadequate.

Yes.

2. God lacks absolutely nothing. He needs nothing. He forgets nothing. He misses nothing. He is surprised by nothing.

I hesitate a bit on the last point… According to Jeremiah, God did not anticipate that His people would kill their children in sacrifice to Molech.

Jeremiah 32:35 "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters [a] to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin."

3. God is omniscient…

Yes. Omniscient = “all-knowing.” God knows everything there is to know. The future actions of creatures who have a large measure of freedom might not be knowable in complete terms. Certainly all of the possibilities are knowable for God.

I realize this is a major sticking point, so please provide scripture to back up your assertion that God knows the future with complete clarity (distinguished, of course, from areas where He is acting and will act to influence or cause future events).

…He knows the future completely because He wrote it (He declares the end from the beginning).

You have made a reference to scripture in an attempt to support your view, but you did not give the reference. So I’ll do it for you:

Isaiah 46:9-10

9 "Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, 'My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Looking at the scripture in context, we can see the whole thought.

A. There is no one like God (v.9)
B. God has told His people what He intends to do (v. 10a-b)
C. God will accomplish all that He intends for His purpose and pleasure (v. 10c-d)

Therefore, this verse can’t be legitimately used to say that all things are fixed, but rather, it teaches that God will make sure that He will fulfill everything that He has declared according to His purpose and pleasure.

Your assertion that God “knows the future completely because He wrote it” is still unsupported by scripture.

4. Therefore, God knows every action that every human being is going to take. He knows every decision that every human being is going to make. He does not lack knowledge in any area.

This belief is based on your previous unsupported assertion.

5. IF God changes His mind about anything, it necessitates that He did not know something.

Not necessarily. It may simply mean that circumstances have changed. (i.e. Nineveh repents, Noah finds grace in the eyes of the Lord, Moses intercedes for the Children of Israel, Hezekiah prays for healing, etc.)

If God says, "I am going to destroy this people," and Moses prays and the Bible says that God repented of His pronouncement to destroy the people, this CANNOT mean that God didn't know that Moses was going to pray that way.

“CANNOT”? That pretty strong language. God may have known that Moses was going to pray that way. It seems that the scripture teaches that God let Moses make the decision with Him.

It CANNOT mean that God is about to do something that He hadn't already planned to do.

Why not? You’ve given no biblical basis to support your assertion?

God is not good on the fly.

Wow! I’d say that if God is complete in all things, then He would be VERY good doing things “on the fly”. Nothing is too difficult for God!

God is perfect for eternity. He does not need to change His mind because there is no defect in Him at all (including His knowledge).

There are no defects in God. (He’s even good at doing things “on the fly”.)

6. This is the orthodox position and has been for 2000 years.

While I take “the orthodox position” very seriously, it is not scripture. Furthermore, I doubt your view has been defined since the boyhood of Jesus.

To suggest that God changes His mind because He doesn't know the decisions that man will make is to suggest that God is less than perfect and complete.

Only if you are a Calvinist.

Look at what the Baptists said about this in the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith:

"God is all-sufficient, and all life, glory, goodness and blessedness are found in Him and in Him alone. He does not stand in need of any of the creatures that He has made, nor does He derive any part of His glory from them. On the contrary, He manifests His own glory in and by them. He is the fountain-head of all being, and the origin, channel and end of all things. Over all His creatures He is sovereign. He uses them as He pleases, and does for them or to them all that He wills. His sight penetrates to the heart of all things. His knowledge is infinite and infallible. No single thing is to Him at risk or uncertain, for He is not dependent upon created things. In all His decisions, doings and demands He is most holy. Angels and men owe to Him as their creator all worship, service and obedience, and whatever else He may require at their hands."

I don’t actually see ANYTHING in there that supports your assertion that God “knows the future completely because He wrote it”. (By the way, that confession is only 317-years-old. Didn’t you claim support going back 2000 years?) God knows everything that there is to know. Perhaps, based on the unknown nature of time, the future is not certain. Or, God may simply limit His knowledge. I don’t know. But I do know that scripture teaches that God has given humankind the honor and dignity of influencing Him.

Now, while church councils and statements of faith are not infallible…

Yep. They’ve been used as justification to persecute Baptists since they deviated from the “orthodoxy” of the day.

…it is unwise (at best) to go against what a majority of the church has held to for thousands of years just so you can cling to the freedom of man's will.

If you think that the reason I reject your arguments is that I just have a fancy for the doctrine of free will, you are completely mistaken. I hold the beliefs I do because I’m convinced that the Bible teaches them.

And frankly, in terms of intellectual religiosity, it is a bit embarrassing to have a God who would actually condescend to loving humankind, and being executed as a demonstration of that love, and rising again in a physical, although glorified, body, and then ascending bodily into the heavens where He is seated at the right hand of the Father. It would be much more intellectually attractive for me to believe that God was some sort of impersonal force that pulls us along inescapably into a final predestined condition of joy or destruction. At least I could rationalize at sorts of things and not have to live by faith in the Person of Christ, radically transforming my daily life to follow Him in interactive discipleship.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by J.D.:
I don't think God is frustrated, but I sure am. I don't know how rippon and calvi and doulous and whatever etc etc can have the patience to keep mixing it up with you guys every day.

I don’t post much on BaptistBoard anymore, but Marcia was the one who started this thread by using my post as a “bad” example. I don’t care to have my views misstated nor unfairly maligned so I have responded. And more importantly, I am convinced that Marcia’s assertion that we don’t influence God to be a crippling influence on the church today. I can’t easily let that slip by without refuting it with scripture.

If God is changing His mind, then assurance and security of salvation is a big lie.

Not at all! If you have entered into Kingdom life, you are experiencing salvation and have been given a life that will not end.

You have nothing on which to trust but God's word, His promises.

God’s word is good and His promises are trustworthy. Our security is based on the unchanging character of God.

If God changed his mind about pre-flood humanity, what is there to say he won't change his mind about [B}US

??? [/b]

Because He said He would not. (And frankly, if He did change His mind, what could we do about it?) But since God has demonstrated His love toward us (and gives us faith to trust Him if we are actively following Him according to the pattern of life demonstrated and supported by Christ), we know God’s word is good.

Don't you see the implication of what you're saying? If God KNOWS the future, it can not change, else he would not know it.

Yes.

And if God has not DETERMINED the future, then who or what did?

Why do you insist that the future is determined? What is your scriptural basis?

[Who or what determines the future] Man?

I think humankind has a strong influence.

Chance?

Nope. God had created humankind in His image with creative will, and we exercise it with God. God has the ultimate say, though.

Does the thought that even a little bit of calvinist teaching may be correct scare you guys…

I think that some of Calvinist teaching is correct. (We don’t initiate a relationship with God – John 6:44, etc.) Nothing about it “scares” me. I studied Calvinism carefully in my college days (I was a theology student) and found it intellectually appealing, but unpersuasive as far as the biblical basis of it goes. I had studied the Bible carefully for two years (reading it through many times) before teaching a theology course. I knew the message of scripture pretty well before I was exposed to interpretive theological systems like Calvinism and premillenial dispensationalism, so I could see the strengths and weaknesses of such systems fairly objectively.

…so much that you're willing to run head-long into patently false doctrine - open theism, pelagianism, denial of original sin?

You claim it is a “patently false doctrine”, though I have not yet seen a scriptural foundation for the doctrine that God is not influenced by humankind. Yet I, and several others here, have provided a number of clear scriptural passages that support our view.

Amazing.

I agree.

 

[Marcia]

Posted by BaptistBeliever
Yes. Omniscient = “all-knowing.” God knows everything there is to know. The future actions of creatures who have a large measure of freedom might not be knowable in complete terms. Certainly all of the possibilities are knowable for God.

You must be an Open Theist, right? This is an Open Theist view you've just expressed here.

 

[J.D.]

I am convinced that Marcia’s assertion that we don’t influence God to be a crippling influence on the church today.

Marcia, you have amazing powers. You and those like you are crippling the work of Almighty God. Now let up a little and let God have a chance to do what he wants to do, o.k.?

 

[Humblesmith]

Wow, heresy right in front of our noses, right out in the open in front of everybody.

I'm glad the real God doesn't have to figure things out as He goes along.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
If God changes his mind, then He creates a new future reality. Furthermore, since God is active and working within His creation, he can bring His plans to fruition and keep any promises/covenants He has made.

So does that mean the previous "future reality" is somehow not good enough? </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe. Or more likely, there is an new opportunity to work decisively in the life of one or more of His creatures.

For what it is worth, my term “future reality” is not a very good descriptor. Perhaps a better way to say it would be “future timeline”.

That God did not plan right or that things happened to change his mind that he did not know about in advance?

God has planned properly. (You imply that God has every detail of a timeline mapped out, that is not necessarily true.) Since God is working with His creatures (that’s us ) who exercise a measure of freedom, He is acting and reacting with or against us.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Perhaps there were many options before God (neither one of us has God’s perspective!) and the act of Hezekiah asking moved God with compassion to select a different option.

Options? Why does God need options? </font>[/QUOTE]Because He has elected to give us a measure of free will.

He would only need options if his plans were not perfect or if he was surprised by something.

Again, you assume He has not given us a measure of free will and has made a detailed timeline. The underlying assumption that motivates this objection is false, in my opinion.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Think of all the things God had planned that were changed with Hezekiah getting 15 more years (like Hezekiah's wicked son)!

God is great enough to deal with that! God is not harried or alarmed by change.
</font>[/QUOTE]I know, because God knows the future! </font>[/QUOTE]Again, you’re assuming a certain simplistic theory of the nature of time. God knows what He will do in the future and can make promises based on that, and God is also at work in the present and guides the overall sweep of human history. I cannot say with assurance that God does or God does not know the future in complete detail because I have found no solid scriptural basis for either assertion.

It's only if he doesn't that he would be surprised by "change." But those who say God changes his mind beg the question of why he does so, and the only logical responses are that 1) God does not know the future; 2) God did not have a perfect plan from eternity (i.e., makes mistakes)

I reject the second explanation you listed and I don’t know about the first one. I think God does know at least some of what will happen with the decisions of His creatures since He knows us so well… but I’m not convinced that everything is mapped out in advance. Furthermore, I’m not so sure that there isn’t a third way that you haven’t listed.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The scripture teaches that God’s nature and character does not change, but clearly teaches that God is moved with compassion.

God is merciful and compassionate, but if he changes plans because he is moved by compassion, you have put him in time. </font>[/QUOTE]And the problem with God being in time?

Jesus lived in time and was moved by compassion, yet did not give up His divine nature or authority. Furthermore, there is the possibility that God exists within time (he certainly speaks to me – a person trapped in time) as well as outside of time.

Moreover, what exactly is the nature of time? If we knew, it would settle this conversation very quickly.

If time is merely a sequence of events and nothing more, then God is certainly within time.

This means he did not know that x was going to happen to move him to compassion, so he changed his plans accordingly,

And the problem with this?

… or that he planned wrongly and had to re-adjust his plans according to being moved by compassion.

Since when does not planning to be moved by compassion mean that God planned wrongly?

God being unchanging does not make him a force or a machine because he is outside of time.

Do you have any scripture that tells me that God exists outside of time? (This is not a rhetorical device… I’m really interested.)

He does not act from moment to moment but his acts, plans, compassion, mind, wrath on sin, etc. are all one together in concert from eternity, never conflicting, never abating according to what man does.

Scripture please. (Same attitude as above.)

This is part of the mystery of God and why we can't comprehend a Being who does not have to act in time, from moment to moment. Otherwise, we have a God in time who cannot know the future perfectly (which is what some Open Theist posit).

Yes.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God is not influenced by us.

Wow! That’s one of the most unbiblical things I’ve ever read on BaptistBoard. </font>[/QUOTE]To say God is influenced is to say that God reacts to man, which means he is not perfect in his existence outside of man. </font>[/QUOTE]Where did you get that idea? Do you have scripture for it? I sounds quite a bit like Plato.

For God to react means he is not perfect because any change means growth towards something better or worse, and that means that there is something lacking at some point.

Where did you get the idea that “perfection” forces the perfect thing to be static? Again, that’s Greek philosophy. Does you have any scripture to support your view?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Jesus clearly taught that God is influenced in prayer (Matthew 7:8-10, Luke 18:1-7).
I have to go with Jesus on this one.

He did not say God is influenced - he taught us to pray this way to depend on God and to realize he is compassionate. Once again, I believe this is the only way for man to understand God because he is beyond us. </font>[/QUOTE]So why are you objecting to this view that you concede that Jesus taught??? Do you know more than Jesus does about this subject? (I’m not trying to be haughty here, but this is very important!)

But as soon as we say he changes in response to prayer we have to say, "What does that imply?"

As a disciple of Jesus, I have to go with what He teaches, no matter if the implications of it scandalize the theological systems of others. The view that I understand Jesus to present does not conflict with biblical teaching in my opinion. However, it does conflict with the views of many other people. I regret that.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I’m not trying to be harsh, because your view of God is very popular and is taught in seminaries, from pulpits and in popular books throughout the world. Unfortunately, it is a theological model of God that does not take into account the plain teaching of scripture.

Are you an Open Theist? </font>[/QUOTE]No.

I have quite a bit of sympathy toward the open theist viewpoint, but I don’t consider myself an open theist. And speaking of open theism, I have yet to see a critique of open theism that really deals with the issues and scripture. Usually the critique falls along the lines strawman arguments and emotional attacks on the so-called “diminished God” of open-theism.

I find the views of Dallas Willard in his book, “Divine Conspiracy”, to be helpful on these issues. It is definitely much needed book on the Kingdom of God for this age.

My main objection to the open theism discussion is that I do not understand the nature of time, and knowledge of the true nature of time will likely settle the question. Furthermore, I am uncomfortable with some of the more radical ideas that God has no inkling of the future.

I believe there is a great mystery there that I am not in a position to solve at this time.

Therefore, I assert that God is influenced by humanity – since Jesus clearly teaches it and the rest of the scripture also supports it, and we have a measure of free will which we exercise in the context of God’s permissive will, that is all flowing in time toward a day when faith will be sight and the children of God will be unveiled in the full glory of the new heavens and new earth. In the meantime, God is somehow working all things together for the good of those who have entered into the Kingdom of God, and will continue to be faithful to His people until the Son is revealed in glory.

[ May 15, 2006, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Marcia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Posted by BaptistBeliever
Yes. Omniscient = "all-knowing." God knows everything there is to know. The future actions of creatures who have a large measure of freedom might not be knowable in complete terms. Certainly all of the possibilities are knowable for God.

You must be an Open Theist, right? This is an Open Theist view you've just expressed here. </font>[/QUOTE]I am not.

I'm pointing out the true meaning of the word "omniscient" and speculating on the nature of future knowledge. I don't know how much of the future is knowable. I believe a significant part of it can be.

And yes, some open theists would express this viewpoint.

The problem here is that the discussion has been divided into Calvinism and Arminianism, while those of us who reject both extremes, yet try to take the scripture seriously find that other people want to put a label on us and put us into a category.

As I said in a previous post, I have some affinity for open theist thinking, but I also have some reservations.