Does God Change His Mind?!

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Humblesmith:
Wow, heresy right in front of our noses, right out in the open in front of everybody.

Because of your next statement, I have to assume that you think my viewpoint is heresy.

Please provide a scriptural framework for your accusation. I am willing to be convinced.

I'm glad the real God doesn't have to figure things out as He goes along.

I don't think anyone has advocated the view that you alleged.

 

[Andy T.]

Baptist Believer,

Please don't pretend that those opposed to your view do not base their view on Scripture. We do. We just have a different interpretation than yours. We both interpret some passages in light of others. We interpret the historical accounts (Hezekiah, Ninevah) in light of the didactic statements about God's nature. You do the opposite.

Here is an article that deals honestly with some of these issues revolving around Open Theism:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/foreknowledge/glory_foreknowledge.html

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
Please don't pretend that those opposed to your view do not base their view on Scripture.

I don’t think that you ignore scripture. I just think that many people are reading Greek philosophical presuppositions into the scripture.

Furthermore, I would love for someone to engage me with scripture in a non-hostile manner so I can sort this out.

We do. We just have a different interpretation than yours. We each interpret some passages in light of others. We prefer to interpret the historical accounts in light of didactic statements about God's nature.

Yes.

You do the opposite.

Um, no.

I try to interpret scripture in light of God’s revelation in Christ. Christ’s teachings on prayer and the example of His ministry guide my interpretive assumptions.

Here is an article that deals honestly with some of these issues revolving around Open Theism:

http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/foreknowledge/glory_foreknowledge.html

I’ll check it out.

Thanks!

 

[epistemaniac]

JD, you said

semi-worthy reputation.

ROFLOL!!!!

blessings,
Ken

 

[thjplgvp]

It is hard for me to understand why God would predestine all of you to carry on this argument and waste all this time. Surely had he known what was going to transpire he would have changed his mind and given you all a free will to debate or not to debate so as he would not be responsible for orchestrating this chaotic thread.

I wasn’t going to post but then I thought what if I am predestined to post? If I am predestined to post and I don’t does that mean God changed his mind or maybe I am in sin because I rejected the perfect will of God?

This seems like frivolous post does it not? IMO it matches the rest of this thread.

 

[doulous]

Baptist Believer said:

Sure, we can explain away things in scripture by claiming anthropomorphism, but that doesn’t make it go away.

What an absolutely stupid statement. Of course the passage doesn't go away. It explains God's will in human terms. That is what an anthropomorphism is.

 

[doulous]

Theomorphism. Look it up. Those of you who believe God can change His mind are guilty of this.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/foreknowledge/glory_foreknowledge.html

Great link, thanks. I especially like this Martin Luther quote early in his presentation:

If I profess, with the loudest voice and clearest exposition, every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at that moment attacking, I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages there the loyalty of the soldier is proved, and to be steady on all the battle field besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.

 

[Marcia]

Baptist Believer, just so you and everyone know, this thread should not fall into a Calvinist-Arminian debate. I started this thread and I respectfully request that all posters discuss this topic without bringing in Calvinism or Arminianism as part of the debate. So far, I have been able to do so, so I know it's possible. Thanks.

Posted by Baptist Believer
God has planned properly. (You imply that God has every detail of a timeline mapped out, that is not necessarily true.) Since God is working with His creatures (that’s us ) who exercise a measure of freedom, He is acting and reacting with or against us.

What do you mean by "God is working with His creatures?" Do you mean that God is partially dependent on what man does in order to get his plan worked out?

God knows what He will do in the future and can make promises based on that, and God is also at work in the present and guides the overall sweep of human history.

Do you think that God works in time, from moment to moment? This is what it sounds like you think, so I'm trying to clarify.

I cannot say with assurance that God does or God does not know the future in complete detail because I have found no solid scriptural basis for either assertion.

What about

Declaring the end from the beginning,And from ancient times things which have not been done,Saying, ' My purpose will be established,And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';
Isaiah 46:9-11

There are too many passages where God reveals his knowledge and power -- just read Job 38-42, the Psalms, and Isaiah. How was God able to predict through his prophets about things hundreds of years ahead of time? He would have to know every detail of how everything would be worked out. How could he do this without perfect knowledge of the future?

And the problem with God being in time?

Jesus lived in time and was moved by compassion, yet did not give up His divine nature or authority. Furthermore, there is the possibility that God exists within time (he certainly speaks to me – a person trapped in time) as well as outside of time.

Moreover, what exactly is the nature of time? If we knew, it would settle this conversation very quickly.

If time is merely a sequence of events and nothing more, then God is certainly within time.

Jesus was in time, yes, but this does not mean he gave up his ability to be outside time, though some would argue that Jesus did give up some of his divine powers in the incarnation. That is another topic for another debate and I don't want to get into that here. I believe God can act in time but is not in time as we are. If He were in time as we are, that would mean he changes from moment to moment, and that his acts are sequential. This is not the attribute of an eternal God who created time. If this is the kind of God you are proposing, then you have neo-orthodox God who changes in time, is dependent on man, and does not know the future perfectly.

Since when does not planning to be moved by compassion mean that God planned wrongly?

It would mean that at point A, God planned X. But at point B, he was moved by compassion and so changed to plan Y. This would mean, logically, that he had more compassion at point B than at point A. This would be an imperfect God, because it means that he had less compassion at some point than at another. But God is always perfectly compassionate at every moment.

If God created time how can he be subject to the bonds of time in his actions?

 

[Marcia]

Baptist Believer, I hope you read my previous post that I just posted before this one. Thanks.

Posted by Baptist Believer
And speaking of open theism, I have yet to see a critique of open theism that really deals with the issues and scripture. Usually the critique falls along the lines strawman arguments and emotional attacks on the so-called “diminished God” of open-theism.

Have you looked at these?
http://www.probe.org/content/view/1247/47/

(For link below, click on Articles on menu, then on title, "Neotheism: Orthodox or Unorthodox?
A Theological Response to Greg Boyd"
http://www.normgeisler.com/

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2pip1201.htm

I find the views of Dallas Willard in his book, “Divine Conspiracy”, to be helpful on these issues. It is definitely much needed book on the Kingdom of God for this age.

I am truly interested, for several reasons, why you find this book helpful in regards to this topic.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Marcia:
There are too many passages where God reveals his knowledge and power -- just read Job 38-42, the Psalms, and Isaiah. How was God able to predict through his prophets about things hundreds of years ahead of time? He would have to know every detail of how everything would be worked out. How could he do this without perfect knowledge of the future?

Amen, Marcia. And the specifics are astonishing, aren't they? I don't recall where this prophecy is, but I remember studying the prophecy about someone literally scraping the city of Tyre off the face of the earth and throwing it into the ocean. Then all that's left are rocks upon which fishermen dry their nets. That's a REALLY far-fetched prophecy, in my opinion. (Desperately tries to resist making pun about a flat Tyre.)

Then along comes Alexander the great. He can't get to the island (I believe it is the rebuilt city of Tyre) to attack it. So what does he do? He has his men scrape all the buildings off the abandoned city of Tyre and throw all the rubble into the ocean to create a causeway to that island. And what did people do after that? The fishermen dried their nets on the rocks left over.

 

[whatever]

Ezekiel 26:14

 

[doulous]

2 Hezekiah 14:8 and 3 Thessalonians 9:74

 

[whatever]

I see we have a wise guy (besides me).

Ezekiel 26:14 - (speaking of Tyre) - "I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the LORD; I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD."

Verses 4-6 are even better - "They shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers, and I will scrape her soil from her and make her a bare rock. She shall be in the midst of the sea a place for the spreading of nets, for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD. And she shall become plunder for the nations, and her daughters on the mainland shall be killed by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD."

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Humblesmith:
Wow, heresy right in front of our noses, right out in the open in front of everybody.

Because of your next statement, I have to assume that you think my viewpoint is heresy.

Please provide a scriptural framework for your accusation. I am willing to be convinced.

I'm glad the real God doesn't have to figure things out as He goes along.

I don't think anyone has advocated the view that you alleged. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually J.D. did, just above that post:

Marcia, you have amazing powers. You and those like you are crippling the work of Almighty God. Now let up a little and let God have a chance to do what he wants to do, o.k.?

 

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by Marcia:
There are too many passages where God reveals his knowledge and power -- just read Job 38-42, the Psalms, and Isaiah. How was God able to predict through his prophets about things hundreds of years ahead of time? He would have to know every detail of how everything would be worked out. How could he do this without perfect knowledge of the future?

Maybe He does know every detail of how everything would be worked out. Doesn’t prove the future already exists only that God is Omniscient.

(Isa 46:10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

(Isa 46:11) Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by whatever:
I see we have a wise guy (besides me).

Ezekiel 26:14 - (speaking of Tyre) - "I will make you a bare rock. You shall be a place for the spreading of nets. You shall never be rebuilt, for I am the LORD; I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD."

Verses 4-6 are even better - "They shall destroy the walls of Tyre and break down her towers, and I will scrape her soil from her and make her a bare rock. She shall be in the midst of the sea a place for the spreading of nets, for I have spoken, declares the Lord GOD. And she shall become plunder for the nations, and her daughters on the mainland shall be killed by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD."

Thanks, whatever, for identifying the passages (I feel like I'm about to break into a "who's on first" routine). I didn't have time to look it up when I posted, and that was very helpful.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I thought I'd mention what I think is a very significant point in the passage:

And she shall become plunder for the nations, and her daughters on the mainland shall be killed by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.

God makes Himself known through various means, including His wrath. It is obviously very important to God that He display His wrath, and display the fact that He is the one who is responsible for the calamity that is to come. This and MANY other passages that describe how God will cause calamity end with "Then they will know that I am the LORD".

Yes, God is love. God is merciful. God is longsuffering. These are all characteristics of God that He makes known through His actions. But God's wrath is still yet another characteristic He goes out of His way to make known. That's something I think the free-willers have a very hard time accepting.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Benjamin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Originally posted by Marcia:
There are too many passages where God reveals his knowledge and power -- just read Job 38-42, the Psalms, and Isaiah. How was God able to predict through his prophets about things hundreds of years ahead of time? He would have to know every detail of how everything would be worked out. How could he do this without perfect knowledge of the future?

Maybe He does know every detail of how everything would be worked out. Doesn’t prove the future already exists only that God is Omniscient.

(Isa 46:10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

(Isa 46:11) Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. </font>[/QUOTE]Either
1. God is outside time and therefore, there is no "future" for God. Everything exists at once for Him, something we cannot comprehend since we are in time. Existing outside time would be the mark of an eternal being. He talks in the Bible in terms we can understand.
Or
2. God is in time and therefore changes with time and therefore has a "future" that has not happened yet. In this case, God's prophecies would be guesswork and his plans perhaps would not work out. If the future does not yet exist for God, we have no way of knowing if Satan will really be thrown into the lake of fire, for example. It also would have been impossible for God to have made the prophecies he did in the OT that all came about.

There are people who believe in the 2nd God -- the Neo-orthodox and the Open Theists.

 

[Benjamin]

Marcia, do you hold to a Futurist view for God?

So God is outside of time and is not bound to it in any way? How can God even tell time in this view? Do time statements in scripture not really mean anything because God is only outside of time?

You have some problems if you do hold to a Futurist view in God’s creation starting with the P.O.E. in the beginning and God lying when He said all that He had created was very good.

God that is not bound to time in any way apparently has no problem communicating it to man whom is bound by time in such things as latter days, near-far, days to come, shortly, etc.

If God in truth is not able to exist in time why would it be necessary for Him to create it for us if not to interact with us, or maybe you believe He doesn’t interact with us?

In the dimension of time is where man meets God, so can God exist within time?

How about Jesus, did He exist within time, was He ever bound by time?

You are quick to want to label things into a category of man’s interpretations of time, but I would rather stay away from mans faulty theologies and out of the either/or while considering God capable of both in/out of time which does not take 2 Gods to be within the truth just as in 2 Persons being in 2 places unless you also have a problem with Trinity under this reasoning.

It just isn’t that easy to start branding titles in this area that we do not fully understand.

 

[Andy T.]

There is a 3rd view, which was being debated between Brandon C. Jones and Humblesmith in one of the other recent threads on here. Brandon discussed his view of God being "atemporal" while still holding to the orthodox view of His perfect foreknowledge.

Marcia, I'm behind you all the way on this Open Theism issue. It's a growing problem in Evangelicalism.