Does God Choose Man or Man Choose God?

[canadyjd]

I have been perfectly civil, It's not my fault you don't like being proven wrong.

The gospel is necessary for salvation, and all have a chance to hear it. Indeed, all have the ability to hear it today, or read it, in some fashion. Do I think all people heard the Gospel in all of history? No. But that is a fault of man's sin, who kept himself from hearing it to know God for they did not seek God, for they were sinful. But those who do seek Him out in faith will find him I believe.

So you acknowledge that not everyone has had the chance to hear the gospel, therefore your statement that everyone has the chance to respond in faith is untrue.

That’s a good start.

peace to you

 

[Van]

The reason eternal security works though is due to the 5 points of Grace all working together!

Utter nonsense posted to hide the truth.

The "T," "U," "L." and "I" of the TULIP are false doctrines. I agree that Once Saved, Always Saved is Biblical Doctrine, and that Christ died for all mankind is Biblical Doctrine, and that God chooses (elects) those whose faith He credits as righteousness is Biblical Doctrine.

So I am a one point Calvinist, a two point Arminian, and a three point Bible student, or so I like to think. All four pre-salvation points (TULI) are bogus, and do not support the post-salvation result of eternal security.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The reason eternal security works though is due to the 5 points of Grace all working together!

The problem with all 5 points is that there is no assurance . You don't know that are one of the elect apart from your works. Perseverance of the saints even dressed up as ' preservation ' is no assurance because its dependant on your works.

 

[tyndale1946]

Utter nonsense posted to hide the truth.

The "T," "U," "L." and "I" of the TULIP are false doctrines. I agree that Once Saved, Always Saved is Biblical Doctrine, and that Christ died for all mankind is Biblical Doctrine, and that God chooses (elects) those whose faith He credits as righteousness is Biblical Doctrine.

So I am a one point Calvinist, a two point Arminian, and a three point Bible student, or so I like to think. All four pre-salvation points (TULI) are bogus, and do not support the post-salvation result of eternal security.

Like kyredneck or Kentucky as I call him and I sure you know of him Van, if a man can't get past Total Depravity... I got nothing for you... How can you come to an understanding of the other points when you trip over the first?... Brother Glen

 

[Derf B]

Who is it that believes? Does everyone believe, universally?
If not, and many never hear the gospel message, does God still hold them accountable for not believing what they never knew?

I've got a follow-up question. How many actually overcome the penalty for sin (death)? Jesus said all will be resurrected.
[Jhn 5:28-29 KJV] 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, whether they believe or not, all are resurrected--they are "saved" from the penalty of sin (death). There's something that comes afterward, though, that is to be feared--the "second death", where the body and soul will be destroyed. [Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Is it possible that Jesus sacrifice is applied equally to all in resurrection, but especially to those that believe, in life everlasting?
[1Ti 4:10 KJV] 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[Oseas3]

Great job quoting my posts twice.

Yes, of course, I quoted the words of your post because, as JESUS said, every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment, so, by your words you shall be condemned, and by your words you shall be justifyed-Matt.12:v.36-37. JESUS said more: He that...receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the LAST DAY-John 12:v.48. This last Day arrived, the seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, or seventh and last millennium, the millennium of Christ, the millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ. The Word is God, understand? You are being Judged by the Word of God.

And bolding, as if that makes any of what you say true or of God.

There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit (who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but a person): and these three are One. I work with the Word of God that is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Do not you know? The Word is God, understand?

I just have to say to you: re-study scipture. Because you're taking John 15 out of context WAY bad. my friend.

No I am not as you said, you are. I work with the Word of God, you work with your mere opinions, and I fight against the three unclean spirits like frogs, spirits of devils, that come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet, in fact false preachers of Scriptures like you-2Corinthians 11:v.13-15-, actually the TAIL of the red Dragon- Revelation 12v.v.3-4 and 16:v.13-16.

He was talking about choosing the twelve specifically, not men who are saved, but to be his diciples to do specific work for the church, etc.

What you say has nothing to do with is written in John chapter 15 that describes JESUS 'last instructions to His disciples, and the intimate union of Christ and his true Church, i.e., the true believers.

Get behind me Satan.[/QUOTE]
Oh it is you who is roaring as a lion here like the devil, walking about seeking whom he may devour through his traps.
I work with the Word of God, the Word is God. Your sin has not forgiveness, you are lost as a blasphemer. Furthermore, the disciple is not above his Master, nor the servant above his lord. JESUS said: Matthew 10- It is enough for the disciple that he be as his Master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the Master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Therefore, be ready .

 

[Dave G]

The bible actually says it pleases God to save those that believe.
We should stop where the bible stops. We have no business claiming God has determined something he has not said he has determined.

Again, Barry...
We should stop where the Bible stops, and go as far as the Bible goes.
The Bible says, not only that it pleased Him to save those that believe...

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

It also pleased Him to choose those who believe "in Christ" when?
Before the foundation of the world:

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

Here we clearly see another thing that He was pleased to do...
Predestinate the believer to the adoption of children.

So, not only does the Bible not stop at God being pleased to save them that believe ( by the foolishness of preaching ), but that it pleased God to predestinate those who believe to the adoption of children.
The very same people who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[Dave G]

You are making the leap that you see God determining some things in some way to mean in all things, including every time you go to the toilet .

No, Barry, I am not.

God determines who is saved, because He does the saving.
I'm not making a leap, I'm believing the words of those verses at face value.

Do you?

 

[AustinC]

I've got a follow-up question. How many actually overcome the penalty for sin (death)? Jesus said all will be resurrected.
[Jhn 5:28-29 KJV] 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, whether they believe or not, all are resurrected--they are "saved" from the penalty of sin (death). There's something that comes afterward, though, that is to be feared--the "second death", where the body and soul will be destroyed. [Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Is it possible that Jesus sacrifice is applied equally to all in resurrection, but especially to those that believe, in life everlasting?
[1Ti 4:10 KJV] 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

What a strange and hermaneutically terrible interpretation of scripture.
The answer to your first question is...zero. Not one person overcomes the penalty for sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Only Christ Jesus has overcome. It is only because God made us alive with Christ Jesus that we stand uncondemned.
It is a great travesty when Christians harbor thoughts of their own goodness and grandeur. It is pridefulness akin to that of Satan when we harbor such thoughts. May we see, as John Newton saw, that we are wretched and by God's grace this wretch was redeemed.

 

[Dave G]

All hail TULIP and our God and Savior Calvin. That's all I hear these people saying. Sigh. I will stand on the Word of God and that is that.

I don't hail TULIP, and I don't stand on it for my understanding of God's word...
but I do agree with it because I see it being developed in the Scriptures.
As for John Calvin, in some ways I have trouble believing that he was saved, but that's for another thread.


What I can say for this thread is that I'd never even heard of John Calvin before 2003, when I first read about election in the Bible.
After I first saw it for myself, I went looking to see who else in history had read and understood it the same way I had, and I was shocked at the controversy there was over it.
But at the end of it all, I can honestly say that I've never stood on anything more, or on anything less than every word of God.

Again, if you ever have a question about what I believe and why, @Miss E , I'd be glad to answer it.
All you have to do ask.


May God bless you greatly.

 

[Derf B]

What a strange and hermaneutically terrible interpretation of scripture.
The answer to your first question is...zero. Not one person overcomes the penalty for sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Only Christ Jesus has overcome. It is only because God made us alive with Christ Jesus that we stand u condemned.
It is a great travesty when Christians harbor thoughts of their own goodness and grandeur. It is pridefulness akin to that of Satan when we harbor such thoughts. May we see, as John Newton saw, that we are wretched and by God's grace this wretch was redeemed.

All Christians overcome the penalty for sin. They do it through Christ's sacrifice, but they still overcome it.
[Rev 3:21 KJV] 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

But unbelievers also overcome death. You can tell because they are resurrected. We could discuss how they overcome death, if you want, but they do overcome it, even if just to experience the second death.

A second death was not the penalty for sin, just one death. Unless I missed that pronouncement somewhere in Genesis.

This has nothing to do with whether we are wretched or proud, it has to do with reading scripture. Let's try to leave our pride and humility (or false humility) out of reading scripture and seek to find the true meaning.

 

[Van]

Like kyredneck or Kentucky as I call him and I sure you know of him Van, if a man can't get past Total Depravity... I got nothing for you... How can you come to an understanding of the other points when you trip over the first?... Brother Glen

I think scripture clearly teaches Total Spiritual Inability is invalid. Thus rather than saying I trip over it, perhaps a Calvinist would explain:
1) Why did God harden hearts in Romans 11:7 if they were already unable to hear, understand and believe?
2) Why did Jesus speak in parables if His audience was unable to hear, understand and believe?
3) How were the men of Matthew 23:13 entering the kingdom if they had no spiritual ability?
4) Why did Paul speak to new Christians "as to men of flesh" if men of flesh could not understand spiritual milk? (1 Corinthians 3:1-3

 

[Barry Johnson]

Again, Barry...
We should stop where the Bible stops, and go as far as the Bible goes.
The Bible says, not only that it pleased Him to save those that believe...

" For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." ( 1 Corinthians 1:21 ).

It also pleased Him to choose those who believe "in Christ" when?
Before the foundation of the world:

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ).

Here we clearly see another thing that He was pleased to do...
Predestinate the believer to the adoption of children.

So, not only does the Bible not stop at God being pleased to save them that believe ( by the foolishness of preaching ), but that it pleased God to predestinate those who believe to the adoption of children.
The very same people who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

We've been down this road already . We are only chosen in Him After we believe . And adoption is the redemption of the body which is what we are predestined to , to BE conformed to his image. God only 'knows ' ( foreknow) us after we believe . Eternal security is based on being sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, not on a gnostic secret election that no bible verse suggests . It does not say you were chosen to be in Him . There's two times the word ' predestined ' shows up and both times its for believers who are guaranteed future glorification( AFTER WE BELIEVE ) which the context shows ( not that context and calvernism go together . Calvernism deals with individual words rather than context .

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 5:20 AM Pacific.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No, Barry, I am not.

God determines who is saved, because He does the saving.
I'm not making a leap, I'm believing the words of those verses at face value.

Do you?

Can you see how you are equating the two ? " God determines Who is saved ( 1 ) , because He does the saving ( 2 ) The system has blinded your mind my friend . No one who talks like a Calvernist ever got this way from simply reading his bible.
God saving someone after they believe does not therefore mean He determined it . The Bible however does say God planned that all those that become In Him will be predestined to be glorified.

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter nonsense posted to hide the truth.

The "T," "U," "L." and "I" of the TULIP are false doctrines. I agree that Once Saved, Always Saved is Biblical Doctrine, and that Christ died for all mankind is Biblical Doctrine, and that God chooses (elects) those whose faith He credits as righteousness is Biblical Doctrine.

So I am a one point Calvinist, a two point Arminian, and a three point Bible student, or so I like to think. All four pre-salvation points (TULI) are bogus, and do not support the post-salvation result of eternal security.

Every one of the so called 5 points have scripture backing them up though!

 

[Yeshua1]

The problem with all 5 points is that there is no assurance . You don't know that are one of the elect apart from your works. Perseverance of the saints even dressed up as ' preservation ' is no assurance because its dependant on your works.

No, its dependent up God to complete that which He has started!

 

[Yeshua1]

I've got a follow-up question. How many actually overcome the penalty for sin (death)? Jesus said all will be resurrected.
[Jhn 5:28-29 KJV] 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, whether they believe or not, all are resurrected--they are "saved" from the penalty of sin (death). There's something that comes afterward, though, that is to be feared--the "second death", where the body and soul will be destroyed. [Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Is it possible that Jesus sacrifice is applied equally to all in resurrection, but especially to those that believe, in life everlasting?
[1Ti 4:10 KJV] 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

The death of Jesus purchased a resurrection for all. but not eternal life for all, as in the sense of redemption and in the presence of God forever!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think scripture clearly teaches Total Spiritual Inability is invalid. Thus rather than saying I trip over it, perhaps a Calvinist would explain:
1) Why did God harden hearts in Romans 11:7 if they were already unable to hear, understand and believe?
2) Why did Jesus speak in parables if His audience was unable to hear, understand and believe?
3) How were the men of Matthew 23:13 entering the kingdom if they had no spiritual ability?
4) Why did Paul speak to new Christians "as to men of flesh" if men of flesh could not understand spiritual milk? (1 Corinthians 3:1-3

Parables were given in order to have those with ears granted them by God could hear and perceive, while rest stayed in blindness...
Paul knows only 3 classes of people. unsaved and lost, unable to receive word of the lord, babes in Christ, and mature saints!

 

[Barry Johnson]

Every one of the so called 5 points have scripture backing them up though!

So does Catholicism.