Does God Desire the Salvation of All?

[Martin Marprelate]

@Ben1445, I really don't want to reply to the whole of your post. I simply don't have the time. Most of your Bible quotations I thoroughly agree with. Just one verse I will comment upon.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

But God is true. And any man who misrepresents God is the liar.

If you understand 'world' to mean 'every single person in the world, then if the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of every person in the world, then the Son failed, since it is clear that not every person in the world is saved. Do you believe the Son failed in the task given to Him? If so, which of us is misrepresenting God? If not, define 'world' (kosmos).

 

[Ascetic X]

@Ben1445, I really don't want to reply to the whole of your post. I simply don't have the time. Most of your Bible quotations I thoroughly agree with. Just one verse I will comment upon.

If you understand 'world' to mean 'every single person in the world, then if the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of every person in the world, then the Son failed, since it is clear that not every person in the world is saved. Do you believe the Son failed in the task given to Him? If so, which of us is misrepresenting God? If not, define 'world' (kosmos).

The Son did not fail. He paid the price for the sins of all mankind. But many reject this gift. Those who reject Christ are the ones who fail.

If there is enough medicine to cure the whole world of cancer, but only a few people take the medicine, the medicine did not fail.

 

[Armchair Apologist]

Just a little clarification. As soils #2 and 3 indicate, just placing our "faith" in Christ does NOT result in salvation. God determines whose faith He will credit as righteousness, and only those with credited faith are transferred spiritually into Him. Easy Believism is a destructive heresy.

Perhaps you may want to think this through a little more. OUR faith does not merit salvation nor are we saved because we believe. Faith is evidence of salvation and we believe because we are saved! I am not trying to argue that regeneration precedes faith or anything like this - just saying that our salvation is all of grace, all of Christ, and NONE OF US!

Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin and such will be evident in the life of one who is genuinely saved. They are not "prerequisite" (conditions) for our salvation. I don't think you have to be "Calvinist" in order to understand this but it certainly helps! Non-Calvinists are often in an uproar over whether repentance is a necessity for salvation and we usually just sit back and watch the show!

 

[Ascetic X]

You must do something. That something does not save you, but it results in salvation being granted.

• Mark 16:16: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (ESV)

• Acts 16:31: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

 

[Kai]

Faith is evidence of salvation and we believe because we are saved!

I don’t necessarily disagree with the contents of your post, and I'm definitely not trying to be difficult by splitting hairs here, but I think it might be helpful to clarify the “Ordo Salutis.”

@Ascetic X posted:

Acts 16:31: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

I find this really useful. The Philippian jailer was given a straightforward message: if he believes, then he'll be saved—not that if he believes, then it’s because he already is saved.

 

[percho]

having made known to us the secret of His will, according to His good pleasure, that He purposed in Himself, in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him; Eph 1:9,10 YLT


I do wonder just what, "the whole," entails.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Son did not fail. He paid the price for the sins of all mankind. But many reject this gift. Those who reject Christ are the ones who fail.

I was referencing 1 John 4:14. '...The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.' I repeat, If you understand 'world' to mean 'every single person in the world, then if the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of every person in the world, then the Son failed, since it is clear that not every person in the world is saved. Do you believe the Son failed in the task given to Him? If so, which of us is misrepresenting God? If not, define 'world' (kosmos).

If there is enough medicine to cure the whole world of cancer, but only a few people take the medicine, the medicine did not fail.

I am not aware that there is a medicine that cures all forms of cancer in all people, but if there is, surely the fault lies with those who do not make it available to all people.

 

[Ben1445]

@Ben1445, I really don't want to reply to the whole of your post. I simply don't have the time. Most of your Bible quotations I thoroughly agree with. Just one verse I will comment upon.

If you understand 'world' to mean 'every single person in the world, then if the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of every person in the world, then the Son failed, since it is clear that not every person in the world is saved. Do you believe the Son failed in the task given to Him? If so, which of us is misrepresenting God? If not, define 'world' (kosmos).

No I don’t believe the Sin failed. Propitiation is in Christ. He has done everything necessary to redeem every individual. The Lamb was sacrificed. But the blood is not applied to every man. Application of the blood was not something that God did to the doors in Egypt. Those who trusted God for salvation came the way He provided. Acting on provision made is not taking credit for anything, it is taking God at His word.
He is able to save to the “uttermost.” I don’t see how that could be viewed as a failure on God’s part. And for those people who can’t grasp it, the word “able” in Hebrews 7:25 is a word that has potential. It means that Jesus has the power to save to the uttermost extent. The limitation is our own response to God.

Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

We may not presume that our own intentions are without consequence.

Man is where the failure lies. God’s just judgment in meting out mercy is not a failure. It is righteous judgment for rejecting the Son, the only way of salvation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No I don’t believe the Son failed. Propitiation is in Christ. He has done everything necessary to redeem every individual.

If by 'every individual' you mean every individual who ever lived, then He has obviously not done everything necessary to redeem them since not every individual who has ever lived is not redeemed. We are back with 1 John 4:14 and the question of what is meant by 'world.' You have still not defined 'world' as I suggested you might in post #21.
The Lord Jesus laid down His life for His sheep (John 10:11). His sheep hear his voice and follow Him and He gives them eternal life (John 10:27-28). Those who do not believe do so certainly because they have wicked unbelieving hearts, but also because they are not His sheep (John 10:26).

I suggest to you, gently, that your objection to free grace is not so much built on the Scripture as on your aversion to that doctrine. But I believe that God loves people enough to save them. Christ did not come merely to offer salvation, nor to make salvation available. He came into the world actually to save sinners (1 Tim. 1:15; Titus 3:4-5).

 

[Ascetic X]

Again, your reasoning is in serious error.

If there was a medicine that cured cancer, and enough of that medicine existed to cure everyone in the world who has cancer, if some cancer patients rejected that medicine, you cannot say the medicine failed.

God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

If some people reject this salvation and knowledge, God did not fail. Those who rejected it failed.

1 John 4:14. The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (Not just the elect).

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Again, your reasoning is in serious error.

If there was a medicine that cured cancer, and enough of that medicine existed to cure everyone in the world who has cancer, if some cancer patients rejected that medicine, you cannot say the medicine failed.

If there remained some people who were not cured of cancer for any reason, one could not say that the medicine had cured all cancer QED. However, contact me again when the drug appears and we can discuss it further.

God wants all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth.

If some people reject this salvation and knowledge, God did not fail. Those who rejected it failed.

"Poor old God! He tried His best but it just didn't work out for Him! It really wasn't his fault." I don't think so (Psalm 115:3). But in such a theoretical case, the Son would not be the Saviour of every person in the world, but of those who believe. So you are inevitably limiting the Atonement.

1 John 4:14. The Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (Not just the elect).

You have still not told me how you understand the word 'world.' If you mean 'all the people in the world who ever lived,' then clearly the Son did not succeed in His mission QED.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Amen! And not one of those for whom Christ died will perish. God is longsuffering towards 'us,' the people to whom Peter was writing, i.e. believers, Christ's sheep (c.f. 2 Peter 1:1).

 

[Ascetic X]

If there remained some people who were not cured of cancer for any reason, one could not say that the medicine had cured all cancer QED. However, contact me again when the drug appears and we can discuss it further.

Bible does not say all sinners get saved.

It says Jesus died for all, but we must repent and believe the gospel.

"Poor old God! He tried His best but it just didn't work out for Him! It really wasn't his fault." I don't think so (Psalm 115:3). But in such a theoretical case, the Son would not be the Saviour of every person in the world, but of those who believe. So you are inevitably limiting the Atonement.

And you are mocking God.

If a person rejects salvation, it is their own fault.

You have still not told me how you understand the word 'world.' If you mean 'all the people in the world who ever lived,' then clearly the Son did not succeed in His mission QED.

You are so quick to mock God and the Son.

Jesus succeeded in His mission to die for the sins of all mankind.

His mission was not to force acceptance of salvation on everybody.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Bible does not say all sinners get saved.

True.

It says Jesus died for all, but we must repent and believe the gospel.

Again, we have to decide what all means in this context. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......... This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day" (John 6:37, 39). To be sure vs. 37b and 40 say that everyone who comes to Christ will be saved, and I believe that absolutely; but v.44 and other Sriptures tell us that no one will come unless the Father draws them.

And you are mocking God.

What I am mocking (gently, I hope) is your interpretation of God's salvation.

If a person rejects salvation, it is their own fault.

Again, true!

You are so quick to mock God and the Son.

I am not mocking God or Christ. I am trying to show you that your interpretation of 1 John 4:14 actually diminishes both of them.

Jesus succeeded in His mission to die for the sins of all mankind.

In what respect did He die for those who will end up in hell?

His mission was not to force acceptance of salvation on everybody.

I praise God every day that He did not leave me to perish in my sin and obstinacy, but instead gently, but irresistibly, drew me with lovingkindness (Jer. 31:3).

 

[Ascetic X]

You seem to think humans are unable to choose.

You say that if God wants all to be saved, He should be able to force them all to accept Christ and believe the gospel.

The Bible teaches man has to choose.

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You seem to think humans are unable to choose.

People are not constitutionally unable to choose to trust in Christ, nor does God prevent them, but the Bible tells us that they will not come unless God opens their hearts to do so. I referenced several texts in my post #13; have a look at them.

You say that if God wants all to be saved, He should be able to force them all to accept Christ and believe the gospel.

The Bible teaches man has to choose.

Joshua 24:15

And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Amen! It does indeed. But as I have said, it also teaches that men and women will not choose to follow Christ unless they are drawn. Here are the texts again: John 3:19; 5:59; Romans 3:10-18; 1 Cor. 2:14 etc. There are several more.

 

[kyredneck]

Mark 16:16: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” (ESV)

So, one must be baptized to be ‘saved’ from eternal damnation?

Acts 16:31: “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.”

So, if the head of the household gets ‘saved’ from eternal damnation the whole household is included?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You seem to think humans are unable to choose.

I think this deserves a further answer. I believe absolutely that humans are able to choose. The Reformed Confessions (Westminster Confession, 1689 Baptist Confession etc.) make it very clear that men do have free will. But if I come to your house and you very kindly offer me the choice of tea or coffee, if I prefer coffee, that's the one I will choose. Is that free will or am I following my carnal appetite?
In the same way, the Lord Jesus tells us, "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than life, beause their deeds were evil" (John 3:19). They prefer darkness to light, and exercise their free will in refusing Christ. They need their heart changed and their eyes opened before they will come to Christ.