Does God get "hurt" by people who reject him?

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

You said, 'This is not evidence that God has a need of His creation.'

We believe that God cares and loves all of His creatures, enough so, that He died on the Cross for every human being that will have ever lived on the face of this earth. [Hebrews 2:9] Moreover, we try to point out that you invest God with a perception that cannot be found in His holy Word, namely that He allegedly and mysteriously picks certain souls for Heaven and the rest for Hell. I would, personally, hate to stand before God with this forte of preaching and teaching this most apparent error. Suggesting this is an affront in the face of God and all Scriptural understanding.

God cared enough to make an atonement for the sins of the world. [I John 2:2]

As to your present understanding, what parts of God's creation does He not care for as to His Providential governance?

 

[Frogman]

He died on the Cross for every human being that will have ever lived on the face of this earth. [Hebrews 2:9]

Again you are wanting to present 'a' scripture out of context. vs. 10 rightly brings us into perspective and tells us in view is "many sons" because of this we can't universally claim all. Furthermore, your statement as it is above '...will have ever lived on the face of this earth.' includes even those who were consigned to the torments of hell even as Christ suffered on the Cross; This is another reason I must reject your view.

As to your present understanding, what parts of God's creation does He not care for as to His Providential governance?

I have never denied the common Grace of God. Does this Providential governance make Him present ruler of every man? What about Romans 8.7?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Contextually, Hebrews 2:9 tells us that Jesus died for every human being. [vs.9] We also know that all people/sinners will not believe in Jesus, [John 3:18] thus, He can only ' . . . bring many sons {daughters} to glory, (and has made Himself) the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.'

We do not violate the context but Calvinists do by denying that Jesus made possible the salvation of every human being on the Cross of Calvary. [John 1:29; Romans 5:18; I John 2:2; I Timothy 2:4; Revelation 22:17]

 

[Frogman]

He can only ' . . . bring many sons {daughters} to glory,

Again you show your tendency to limit the atonement of Christ and the Will of God.

There is no 'can only' but an 'I must bring' this shall be accomplished against all the wiles and workings of the devil.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Hebrews 2:5-18. It was not under angels that he put the world to come, about which we are speaking. Someone witnesses to this somewhere with the words: 'What are human beings that you spare a thought for them, a child of Adam that you care for him'?

For a short while you have made him less than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honour, put all things under his feet. For in putting all things under him he made no exceptions. At present, it is true, we are not able to see that all things are under him, but we do see Jesus, who was for a short while made less than the angels, now crowned with glory and honour because he submitted to death; so that by God's grace his experience of death should benefit all humanity.

It was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should, in bringing many sons to glory, make perfect through suffering the leader of their salvation. For consecrator and consecrated are all of the same stock; that is why he is not ashamed to call them brothers in the text: I shall proclaim your name to my brothers, praise you in full assembly; or in the text: I shall put my hope in him; followed by Look, I and the children whom God has given me. Since all the children share the same human nature, he too shared equally in it, so that by his death he could set aside him who held the power of death, namely the devil, and set free all those who had been held in slavery all their lives by the fear of death. For it was not the angels that he took to himself; he took to himself the line of Abraham. It was essential that he should in this way be made completely like his brothers so that he could become a compassionate and trustworthy high priest for their relationship to God, able to expiate the sins of the people. For the suffering he himself passed through while being put to the test enables him to help others when they are being put to the test.

So, somewhere in this text there is substantiation of predestination and "an elect"? I see mention of the line of Abraham which Jesus took to himself, but no substantiation an elect other than the line of Abraham. Everything else speaks of "All".

 

[Frogman]

And who does Paul call the true descendants of Abraham?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
And who does Paul call the true descendants of Abraham?

Bro. Dallas

Those who have faith in God as did Abraham! Who can have such faith? All and any who believe in Jesus, even on his name!

 

[Frogman]

But he also said not all who are of Israel are of Israel?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Yelsew]

God created man to be a social creature. This is not evidence that God has a need of his creation.

God is not in need of his creation, but he does take pleasure from it in the same manner that we take pleasure in the things we "create". For example: a musician takes great pleasure in performing music. An artist takes pleasure in his product, a designer takes pleasure in his designs, and wife takes pleasure in feeding her appreciative husband. None of those situations are "needs" they are pleasures.

In the same manner, these same situations can foster displeasure. God has told us that wrongly motivated worship displeases him. Our wrong choices also bring him displeasure.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
But he also said not all who are of Israel are of Israel?

Bro. Dallas

True, those who do not have the Faith that Abraham had are not of Israel. The faith covenant always requires faith! And all who come to faith are part of the covenant!

 

[Frogman]

You do always err my friend, man does not create. Again, you simply wish to promulgate a doctrine glorifying to man, it is this I reject in all it's proposals and intents.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas,

Your post on page 2 --Post 1528:

I elevated this verse for our consideration which said that He will 'bring many sons to glory' and you suggested that I should not say, 'He can only bring many sons to glory.' You preferred to say, 'I will bring many sons to glory.'

First, Hebrews 2:9 shows that God sovereignly died for the sins of every human being while on the Cross. ' . . . that He by the grace of God tasted death for every man.'

Secondly, because He has willed to limit His sovereignty He chose not to save everyone, but has made our salvation contingent on our responsive belief in His life, death, resurrection and ascension into Heaven. [John 3:16; John 5:24] Having made salvation dependent on our faith/trust in His saving reality, He in fact can only ' . . . bring many sons to glory.'

Somewhere along the way Calvinists missed the boat by thinking that He can do whatever He wants all of the time. This is error. God has sovereignly decided that He cannot break His promises to His people [Hebrews 6:l8] and neither can He lie, meaning be untruthful. [Hebrews 6:18b] These are things that the sovereign God has limited Himself from doing.

We also know that in the wisdom of God-- He has given human beings a free will [Deut. 30:19] to either receive Christ or to neglect His gracious offer of salvation. [John 3:18] This is why I said, He can only bring many sons {and daughters} to glory. Jesus can only bring to Heaven as many as yield to Him as Savior.

These verses best articulate the fact of a human free will:

Deuteronomy 30:19 says, 'Choose life!'

Isaiah 65:2,12 says, 'When I called, ye did not answer'

Isaiah 66:3,4 says, ' . . . they have chosen their own ways'

II Chronicles 30:8 says, {Don't be} ' . . . stiffnecked, as your fathers were, but yield yourselves unto the Lord.'

Proverbs 1:24 says, 'I called but you refused; I stretched out My hand, but you disregarded'

Proverbs 1:29 says, ' . . . they did not choose the fear of the Lord.'

Acts 7:51 says, 'Ye always resist the Holy Spirit.'

Romans 10:21 says in effect, 'I stretched forth My hands but you were disobedient.'

John 5:40 says, 'And ye will not come to Me that ye might have life.'

All of these verses speak of a human rejecting salvation and even if this is not the case, it still proves that sinners have a free will and are not moved around as puppets, as creatures totally controlled by Almighty God.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
You do always err my friend, man does not create. Again, you simply wish to promulgate a doctrine glorifying to man, it is this I reject in all it's proposals and intents.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

In the strictest sense of the term, you are right, man cannot create. However, I did put the term in quotes to indicate that I did not use the term in the strictest sense.

I have not once, ever, promulgated a doctrine that glorifies man, and you know that to be true. If you think it so you are simply being so narrowminded that you cannot see the truth, or you are deliberately refusing to look at God's creation through God's eyes.

Man is not what you choose to believe. And man is not what you imply that I believe. Man is a product of creation, subject in everyway to the creator, yet endowed with capabilities and attributes like many of those of the creator, thus "in the image of God". Man's destiny is determined by God's work and not man's. But man, having been given certain endowments by God has a say, as did Adam, in his outcome. Each man can alter the destiny that God established for him by believing or rejecting God.
Man's choice has no detrimental affect on God, however.

God determined that He would through His grace, withhold his established wage for sin until He judges man. This provides for man an environment whereby man can Hear the Word, be persuaded or not, and if persuaded (born again), be redeemed into a holiness relationship with the Creator. Man does nothing but decide for himself, God did all the work, and it is complete! He informs us through His Word that the banquet table is set, come and eat! He does not, however, force us to come or to eat!

If Calvin says otherwise, Calvin is simply wrong!

 

[Frogman]

or you are deliberately refusing to look at God's creation through God's eyes.

Please, Please, explain to me how a sinful creature such as I can look upon the creation of God through His eyes.

When you have done this tell me one more time how you do not promulgate doctrine that seeks to glorify man....ok?

Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Frogman:
You do always err my friend, man does not create. Again, you simply wish to promulgate a doctrine glorifying to man, it is this I reject in all it's proposals and intents.

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

In the strictest sense of the term, you are right, man cannot create. However, I did put the term in quotes to indicate that I did not use the term in the strictest sense.

I have not once, ever, promulgated a doctrine that glorifies man, and you know that to be true. If you think it so you are simply being so narrowminded that you cannot see the truth, or you are deliberately refusing to look at God's creation through God's eyes.

Man is not what you choose to believe. And man is not what you imply that I believe. Man is a product of creation, subject in everyway to the creator, yet endowed with capabilities and attributes like many of those of the creator, thus "in the image of God". Man's destiny is determined by God's work and not man's. But man, having been given certain endowments by God has a say, as did Adam, in his outcome. Each man can alter the destiny that God established for him by believing or rejecting God.
Man's choice has no detrimental affect on God, however.

God determined that He would through His grace, withhold his established wage for sin until He judges man. This provides for man an environment whereby man can Hear the Word, be persuaded or not, and if persuaded (born again), be redeemed into a holiness relationship with the Creator. Man does nothing but decide for himself, God did all the work, and it is complete! He informs us through His Word that the banquet table is set, come and eat! He does not, however, force us to come or to eat!

If Calvin says otherwise, Calvin is simply wrong! </font>[/QUOTE]In the only sense of the term "create" means to make something from out of nothing. What man can do this?

I will answer the rest of your reply as soon as I regain composure from laughing so hard at the fact that you have effectively changed your position as to whether God is hurt by the rejection of certain individuals of His Grace.



Bro. dallas

 

[Yelsew]

In the only sense of the term "create" means to make something from out of nothing. What man can do this?

create, v.
v.t.
1. to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.
2. to evolve from one's own thought or imagination, as a work of art or an invention.
3. Theater. to perform (a role) for the first time or in the first production of a play.
4. to make by investing with new rank or by designating; constitute; appoint: to create a peer.
5. to be the cause or occasion of; give rise to: The announcement created confusion.
6. to cause to happen; bring about; arrange, as by intention or design: to create a revolution; to create an opportunity to ask for a raise.
v.i.
7. to do something creative or constructive.
8. Brit. to make a fuss.
adj.
9. Archaic. created.

I will answer the rest of your reply as soon as I regain composure from laughing so hard at the fact that you have effectively changed your position as to whether God is hurt by the rejection of certain individuals of His Grace.

I have not changed my position at all. How is it possible for man to cause even the slightest detrimental effect on God? I have stated that God does get disappointed at man's failures, but that is not a detrimental effect. No harm is caused, God is eternal and never changes, and what is man that God should be mindful of him?

You are simply one who gloats out of his lack of understanding. You seem to lack understanding of God, God's attributes, God's plan of Salvation for man, etc. I am not distressed by your laughter.

 

[Frogman]

I did not mean to distress you Yelsew, just being honest. And honestly I think very poorly of your production of a secular and in my view a humanistic defintion of "create" which btw confirms the thought you were establishing in using the word "create" to attribute to man an ability he is definitely incapable of.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brother Dallas, post 1536 . . .

You said something to the effect that 'How can I as a sinner look through God's eyes at His creation/universe?

Your problem is that you have talked so much about 'Total Depravity' that you still think you are a sinner. God calls you a saint. [Read I John 3:2]

Also, every person saved has the ' . . . mind of Christ.' [I Corinthians 2:16] You should be able to see into deeper spiritual truths and concepts.

I think you are probably just a humble Christian man, as in humility. This is a good thing!

 

[Frogman]

Bro. Ray,
I pray daily for humility that I may serve my God.

I do not believe I am freed from this sinful flesh, this does not give me license to be partaker of that nature as I once was when lost and groping for the wall as the blind in the noon day, yet, even in the height of joy of this salvation I cannot hope to see through the eyes of God, my creator, this would be the ultimate in prideful desire and lust and I pray not ever this be put upon myself, nor any other.

My meaning in this is such that I can name you at least one man who has wronged me terribly; now, as a man, my reaction is naturally to exact revenge, yet I hear my Lord proclaim 'vengeance is mine...'

Further, it may yet be in the design of God that this man be a partaker in due season of this heavenly calling; such that I am reminded of the Spirit of my calling; and Grace I claim as being sufficient for my hurt, for what is my hurt compared to the suffering of my Lord while in this world? what is my hurt compared to the humility of my God when as man He walked amidst the creatures of dust.

Nay...I am but dust and ashes...I am but a worm...though possessing the hope of Christ in my heart and having received the earnest of the Spirit...I submit myself unto His purpose and ask Grace sufficient to carry me through each day.

It is enough that I witnessed to this man one time and he laughed me to scorn and told me he held a front row seat in hell; it is enough I have seen others witness to this man who are Arminian in belief and he reacted the same; If God should choose to visit upon him his sins and grant a repentance and faith in Christ Jesus it is enough for me that someday in the presence of God we each shall sing praises and honor to our Saviour; otherwise in this world I am consigned to the restraints of my graveclothes and though I would at this moment gladly cast them off, I must await the voice of Christ to say 'Loose him and let him go.'

The heart of man is a deceitful thing, who can know it? If God did not perhaps he could be hurt when he is rejected, yet this truth is no surprise to God, though it surprise ourselves daily to see so many walking in sinful blind lust.

Tell me, the Son of God has travelled upon this earth, yet the Scripture tell us plainly there is reserved for this earth fire to destroy it. Why is this so? This corruptible must put on incorruptible, but this cannot be done this side of glory.

God Bless.
Bro. dallas

(I believe it was 1542-43 the Portuguese first visited Japan; at this time missionaries began to visit as well, Jesuits by name, did the Asians reject God, or did they reject the missionaries, if God, why, if the missionaries, why?)

[ April 04, 2003, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Frogman:
I did not mean to distress you Yelsew, just being honest. And honestly I think very poorly of your production of a secular and in my view a humanistic defintion of "create" which btw confirms the thought you were establishing in using the word "create" to attribute to man an ability he is definitely incapable of.

Bro. Dallas

As I pointed out there is more than one definition for create. In fact, every pastor in every church "creates" an atmosphere suitable for Preaching the word of God. Every pastor worth his salt creates an atmosphere conducive to conversion of sinners into saints. Now obviously these scenarios in no way equate to the Creation of something from nothing, as God did in the creation of the heavens and the earth.

The "creation" that man can do is reformation of existing elements, or situations, from chaos to harmony, and vice versa. But you know that and take pride in frustrating that which you do not understand.