Does God hate the Sinner?

[Amy.G]

No, I'm saying no such thing.

So what are you saying?

 

[kyredneck]

So what are you saying?

Go,take a long look at 1 Cor 5:5 and think about it. What had this man lost but still yet retained?

 

[Amy.G]

Go,take a long look at 1 Cor 5:5 and think about it. What had this man lost but still yet retained?

How about you stop being so mysterious and tell us the difference between kingdom salvation and eternal salvation?

 

[kyredneck]

How about you stop being so mysterious and tell us the difference between kingdom salvation and eternal salvation?

How about you stop being so shallow and state your thoughts on 1 Cor 5:5. What had this man lost but still yet retained?

 

[freeatlast]

Now Children, Children.

 

[Amy.G]

How about you stop being so shallow and state your thoughts on 1 Cor 5:5.

Sigh. I asked you a simple question and you answered it with a question wanting to know my opinion on a verse.

The verse is talking about excommunication because of immorality of one of the members of the Corinthian church. The idea is to punish the man in order to restore him to a right relationship with God and subsequently being brought back into the church.

How does this address two kingdoms?????

 

[kyredneck]

Sigh. I asked you a simple question and you answered it with a question wanting to know my opinion on a verse.

The verse is talking about excommunication because of immorality of one of the members of the Corinthian church. The idea is to punish the man in order to restore him to a right relationship with God and subsequently being brought back into the church.

How does this address two kingdoms?????

Sigh.

At the time this was recorded no one knew, Paul included, that the man would be restored. At that moment in time, Paul, with the authority that had been vested in him as an apostle, turned him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh [READ WRATH TO A BELIEVER], BUT, the man's spirit would still yet be saved in the day of the Lord.

The man had affectively lost any joy, peace, righteousness, fellowship with the Saints, i.e., HE HAD BEEN BOOTED OUT OF THE KINGDOM (which is here, now) AND HAD FORFEITED HIS GOSPEL (KINGDOM) SALVATION, BUT HAD RETAINED HIS ETERNAL SALVATION. He was still bound for heaven irregardless.

Maybe you just breeze over this like it's insignificant, but it is not. It's a glorious truth that we should all rejoice in:

if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2:13

 

[Amy.G]

Sigh.

At the time this was recorded no one knew, Paul included, that the man would be restored. At that moment in time, Paul, with the authority that had been vested in him as an apostle, turned him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, BUT, the man's spirit would still yet be saved in the day of the Lord.

The man had affectively lost any joy, peace, righteousness, fellowship with the Saints, i.e., HE HAD BEEN BOOTED OUT OF THE KINGDOM (which is here, now) AND HAD FORFEITED HIS GOSPEL (KINGDOM) SALVATION, BUT HAD RETAINED HIS ETERNAL SALVATION. He was still bound for heaven irregardless.

Maybe you just breeze over this like it's insignificant, but it is not. It's a glorious truth that we should all rejoice in:

if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2:13

Who booted him out of the kingdom? Paul? Paul doesn't have the authority to boot anyone out of God's kingdom any more than you do. That is for God alone. And there is no evidence that God ever boots anyone out of His kingdom.

Can you provide other scripture to back this up besides 1 Cor. 5:5?

I guess you have to manufacture this belief in order to justify your belief that we are living in the millennial kingdom now?

You still have not answered what the difference is between these two kingdoms?

 

[kyredneck]

Who booted him out of the kingdom? Paul? Paul doesn't have the authority to boot anyone out of God's kingdom any more than you do. That is for God alone. And there is no evidence that God ever boots anyone out of His kingdom.

Can you provide other scripture to back this up besides 1 Cor. 5:5?

I guess you have to manufacture this belief in order to justify your belief that we are living in the millennial kingdom now?

You still have not answered what the difference is between these two kingdoms?

I am convinced that the false theology of Dispensationalism has done as much or more damage to the truth of the gospel as any heresy that there ever was. Because of it, we're simply unable to comminicate. It blows my mind. God have mercy on us all.

Good night Amy. I'm done here.

 

[Amy.G]

I am convinced that the false theology of Dispensationalism has done as much or more damage to the truth of the gospel as any heresy that there ever was. Because of it, we're simply unable to comminicate. It blows my mind. God have mercy on us all.

Good night Amy. I'm done here.

Who said anything about dispensationalism?

Do you refuse to answer my question?

What is the difference between kingdom salvation and eternal salvation?

Who has the authority to boot anyone out of the kingdom? You say it is Paul. I would just like an explanation.

 

[Robert Snow]

The more I read about Primitive Baptist, the more amazed I am that anyone would hold to such a bizarre doctrine as they do. Kyredneck is a prime example of "wrongly" dividing the Word of God.

How in the world anyone would think that this is the Millennium Kingdom is beyond me.

 

[Amy.G]

The more I read about Primitive Baptist, the more amazed I am that anyone would hold to such a bizarre doctrine as they do. Kyredneck is a prime example of "wrongly" dividing the Word of God.

What I find bizarre (in addition to the 2 kingdom thing) is someone who on a public forum proclaims a belief in it and then refuses to explain themselves. If it's true wouldn't you want everyone to understand it?

 

[12strings]

For anyone who is interested, here are a few quotes from Michael Gowens, a Primitive Baptist Pastor's articles. (2 articles, one about “EFFECTUAL CALLING” & another about “JUSTIFICATION”)...with a few comments from me.

(I have not intentionally taken anything out of context...I am aiming to fairly represent this man's positions)

“The father planned the work in the covenant, the Son executed the work at the cross, and the Spirit applies the work in the effectual call. Every one that the Father elected, and the Son redeemed, the Spirit will regenerate.”

-Amen, and Amen.

“For example, to say that the Father, sovereignly and independently, chose a people, and that the Son sovereignly and independently redeemed a people, but that the Spirit employs human agency to call that people into new life, presents a disunity within the Godhead.”

-I disagree with this statement, God can use human means to accomplish his will.

“The effectual call is a call to eternal salvation; the gospel call is a call to repentance and faith (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30; Acts 20:21; Acts 26:20). The effectual call is a call to sonship; the gospel call is a call to discipleship.”

“The gospel is heaven's powerful resource for living the Christian life.”

“The Gospel Urges Men to Turn from Idolatry and to Worship the True God. The Thessalonians responded to Paul's preaching by "turning to God from idols to serve the living and the true God" (I Ths. l: 9). The call to repentance is inherent in the gospel message. The gospel not only proclaims Christ's finished work, but calls upon the hearer to respond to that message by believing it, obeying it, and committing himself to a life of godliness, out of gratitude for God's grace. The gospel summons men to a life of good works, not in order to gain salvation, but in order to glorify the God of our salvation.”

-These 3 quotes get to the heart of the "2 salvations" issue. He believes that the effectual call (which always results in regeneration leading to eternal life) is different than the call to follow and obey Jesus (described using the terms: discipleship, obedience, kingdom salvation).
-The middle quote, when take with the first, seems to say that the point of the Gospel is not really eternal salvation at all, but simply to help us live better while we are here on earth.
-I would agree with the entirety of the last quote, except that this man believes that one's response to this gospel call is not connected to their eternal state.

“ The Gospel is the Instrument of Conversion…God uses his word to change a person's mind (Ps. 15):7; Ps. 119:25). That is conversion.”

-yet, according to the previous statements, one can be regenerated without being converted.

“My friend, redemption is not applied to the individual when he believes the gospel; it’s applied at the point of regeneration. So justification by faith does not concern the application of redemption, it concerns the assurance of redemption—not anything done to you; rather justification by faith concerns the assurance.”

He draws a sharp distinction between Regeneration and Justification by faith. He elsewhere describes justification in the legal terms of God declaring us righteous...but here speaking of Justification BY FAITH, he takes that merely to mean that by faith I can justify to myself that I have been redeemed. So faith results in assurance, not eternal salvation.

...All in all, very interesting stuff. I had heard of primitive baptists before, but did not know much about their beliefs.

 

[Iconoclast]

In reference to the Kingdom......there is the already/not yet.....

Jesus rules right now .....in the midst of His enemies...as the Kingdom spreads worldwide through gospel preaching.

1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. 2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

7He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

At the end, the last day....all things, persons who offend are removed...showing there are tares among the wheat now.
That is the already part....

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, ;and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

the eternal state is the not yet.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Hello Jon,
that is interesting. I have always questioned how God could love me but not that He does. I accept that He does because scripture says He does.
You are no different. He loves all of His elect even if we are un-loveable in our own minds.

While I don't know how valid the comparison is, I had a pastor who told me that we get our concept of our heavenly Father from our earthly one.That's why I don't believe in a father's love.

I never felt loved by my dad who was cruel and delighted in beating the tar out of me whenever I did anything that he didn't like; they weren't simple spankings but cruel and severe beatings. Plus, his cruel words did far more damage to my mind than his beatings ever did to my body. I healed from the beatings, but I have never completely healed from his destructive words. To this day I don't believe he ever loved me. He enjoyed the beating and criticizing too much. There were never any kind words from him, hugs, or any affection whatsoever from him. I thank God I had a loving and kind mother.

 

[freeatlast]

While I don't know how valid the comparison is, I had a pastor who told me that we get our concept of our heavenly Father from our earthly one.That's why I don't believe in a father's love.

I never felt loved by my dad who was cruel and delighted in beating the tar out of me whenever I did anything that he didn't like; they weren't simple spankings but cruel and severe beatings. Plus, his cruel words did far more damage to my mind than his beatings ever did to my body. I healed from the beatings, but I have never completely healed from his destructive words. To this day I don't believe he ever loved me. He enjoyed the beating and criticizing too much. There were never any kind words from him, hugs, or any affection whatsoever from him. I thank God I had a loving and kind mother.

Jon I have heard your kind of testimony too many times. In fact one is too many as this should never happen even once. The blessing in all this is that once we come to Christ the experience of the love of God is now as full as we are willing to allow it to be. I certainly can say that He wants us to experience it to its fullest. Sometimes the hard part is receiving it. I think that sometimes we just do not know what to do with His love since it is so freely given.
My guess is that your father was passing on what he felt from his father and that is sad. Now that you have a new loving Father you can learn to pass on what He has shown you. May I also learn to pass this on as He would have me. God bless.