Let me start over again today.
I think 2 types of understanding are possible, about the nature of Jesus Christ.
First, I want to re-think about what Natters mentioned yesterday, <Do you believe Christ's humanity is divine?>, and want to comment on webdog's idea which I believe very much to the point and to some extent, we can match together all the possible ideas.
1) Webdog's idea coincides with my explanation about the birth and also, if we take the idea of natters that the humanity may be divine, then as divinity existed from eternity to eternity, it means that Christ had the humanity too even from the eternity.
If natters claim that humanity=divinity, and that was given only after incarnation, then it denies the eternity of Christ's divinity. Therefore I believe natters would agree to the eternity of divinity and humanity in unity, from eternity.
In that case we can think about the lineage and progress where Jesus existed before eternity as we hear from Heb 7:3 (having neither days of beginning...) and Prov 8:22-31)
In OT, Malack is translated into an Angel or the Angel and it was mentioned 214 times in my knowledge and it is different from usual wording for angels which is elohim. He appeared in Gen 18 when God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and when Abraham try to sacrifice Issac too> Also, he appeared to Manoah, Samson's father and Jacob.
Jacob confessed " the Angel who redeemed me from all evil" (Gen 48:16) Redemption need the blood-shedding, which may have been done with the animal sacrifices as shadows of Christ's crucifixion. Such appearance of Malack as theophanic Angel took place about 50 times. He told Jacob that He is God of Beth-El and Manoah asked his name, then answered his name is peleh (Wonderful)which is also found in Isaiah 9:6.
Moreover, we often read the Right hand of Jehova protected Israel and led them.
Therefore we can believe that Pre-Incarnate Son of God worked during OT times in many ways.
Now the question is about whether Son of God had the flesh same as the one after His incarnation or not. I don't think it is a serious matter whether the flesh is the same or not. Jesus could enter the room while the door was closed (20:19) Wasn't it possible before His incarnation? He already showed up miraculously unto Manoah and even unto Balaam (Numbers 22). Sometimes He wrestled with Jacob as in Gen 32:28-30. Of course the meaning and the role of the humanity which Son of God carried at each time may be different. He was perfect before the incarnation and was also perfect after the resurrection.(Heb 5:7-9) The difference is that we human beings are included in His perfection.
Pre-Incarnate Body-Incaranted Body-Glorified body may be the same or may be a little different, which is not so important in this discussion. I don't think the glorified body is different one than the Incarnated body before the crucifixion. Likewise we can even think that the Incarnate body may be the extended form of WORD which started from the minimal size, or which penentrated into human body as He entered the closed door and started from minimal size as Human embryo.
Otherwise, if we take that Word become a sperm and the sperm was fertilized into ovum, which is based on human thoughts, then the question arise about where was the previous being(Son of God) gone because the fertilization creates a new human embryo with brain etc.
Therefore if we take the word itself, simply The Word became flesh (neither sperm nor other than flesh) which has Spirit and Soul in it, which eventually means "enfleshing"
This is why Jesus remembered what Abraham did and said He IS before Abraham WAS.
Therefore what natters recommended coincides with my thinking and that of Webdog's
It is good that Web' understands very well about the ministry of Son of God before Incarnation as Pre-Incarnate Yeshuah.
But the point in this thread is that in such case the role of Mary is very much limited to Human Incubator or to Surrogate-Mother, and Jesus existed before the creation and before His incarnation,and Mary didn't add anything to humanity nor to his divinity, but remained as maid-servant(as she confessed) carrying and passing the enfleshed Son of God into the world.
2) Another idea is the one which I would call "traditional or conventional understanding"
This idea may be OK with Bobryan's as he explained well about his view on this matter.
In this case, Jesus was 100% divine before incarnation, but not 100% human before incarnation.
After he was conceived in Mary, he became 100% divine plus 100% human.
In that case, we can clearly notice the difference between 2 times, about the nature of Jesus.
The fact that the nature of Jesus is different at 2 different times means that something was added or changed in it. Was divinity changed into humanity? Is the body of Mary capable of converting divinity into humanity? Wasn't her role was simply to bear the baby?
In my opinion, there is no way with this idea other than allowing the separation of 2 natures in Him, and divinity existed before and then afterwards humanity was added unto him.
As we cannot think about Trinity without separation, we cannot think about this without separation. If Trinity stands without separation, God the Father had to be crucified and Holy Spirit was baptized too. Then Mary is Mother of God the Father if She is mother of Son of God. Therefore we cannot think about Tri-unity without separating the deities.
Likewise, the nature of Jesus should be considered separately. If one doesn't want to separate it, then one nature(divinity) existed far before Mary was born, and Mary is just the mother for the increased portion of the nature of Jesus, not for the divinity and therefore calling Mary as Mother of God is unjust as Heb 7:3 denies.
3)Natters, I don't understand your question and arguement in this:
If Mary is the "Mother of Jesus", yet Jesus existed before his conception in Mary's womb, then why isn't "Mother of Jesus" heresy for using "procreation terms" if Jesus was "incarnated, not procreated"?
You have to explain further your questioning.
4) If anyone still disbelieve that Heb 7:3 denies Son of God has Mother, he or she should ask his or her kids how they interpret such verse, after they read thru Hebrews ch 4-7, becaue they are not contaminated with human theology.
