Does God Have Libertarian Free Will?

[Dave G]

Please know that "God's favor" isn't the same thing as "salvation".

As determined by Scripture, or our own ideas about it?
In the Bible,
I see that God's favor only rests upon those that He has decided to save.

If you're persuaded otherwise,
please show me where, in His word, that anyone was ever in the favor of God and was not either a prophet, priest, servant, friend or His own Son...
and I will gladly take a look at it.

I agree with you that we can't earn our salvation--that being dead in trespasses and sins means that we can't gain life through our works.

I'm not sure you realize how very much that that statement encompasses, Derf.
To me, earning salvation can include anything that is used to gain the favor of God, in order to obtain a way out of our predicament as sinners.

But there are a number of people that have done things that God approves of, and they did it through wanting to do it, wanting to please God.

I agree, and that's not what is in question, from my perspective.
My question is, how was it that they were able to gain God's approval?

To be more specific,
How does one go from hating God, to loving Him and wanting His approval?

"Free will"?

I've already seen the kind of answer I would expect from you, where you assumed that Abel was NOT able to willingly please God without something else applied by God.

I'm basing my answer strictly on the Scriptures, Derf.
If you find me answering anything outside of that, please tell me.

While that may be true, the passage doesn't say it, and you have to assume something the passage doesn't say to get that.

I agree.
That passage itself does not say it.

But I'm not assuming anything that other Scriptures do not outright declare;
I get my answer from those...
Scripture shedding light on and defining other Scriptures.
There's no reason for me to go outside of it, because it is sufficient.

For example, there's no need to bring in commentaries, systematic theologies or anything of the sort;
As I see it, God's word should always be enough to answer anything related to itself.

 

[Dave G]

I thought no one seeks after God...

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day." ( Romans 11:7-8 ).

" What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." ( Romans 9:30-33 ).

" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." ( Hebrews 11:6 ).



There are many who seek after the Lord, Derf ( Luke 13:24 ).
Most of them, however, do not seek with the heart.
That is only possible to someone who is born again.

So, if you're truly seeking Him through His word and through prayer, rejoice, for you have been given a very special gift, my friend;
You've been born from above and you have a gift that cannot be purchased with anything that we as men have.

 

[Derf B]

As determined by Scripture, or our own ideas about it?
In the Bible,
I see that God's favor only rests upon those that He has decided to save.

If you're persuaded otherwise,
please show me where, in His word, that anyone was ever in the favor of God and was not either a prophet, priest, servant, friend or His own Son...
and I will gladly take a look at it.

[Exo 9:16 NKJV] 16 "But indeed for this [purpose] I have raised you up, that I may show My power [in] you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.
God showed favor to Pharaoh, though he wasn't any of those things. And He certainly hadn't decided to save him.

I agree, and that's not what is in question, from my perspective.
My question is, how was it that they were able to gain God's approval?

I think your old question was:

Why do you think the one who repented, did so?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this new question: [Jhn 6:29 NKJV] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
The thief showed repentance and believed in Him who was sent. Why? The passage doesn't say. For you to use it to try to bolster your case makes the passage say more than it says.

To be more specific,
How does one go from hating God, to loving Him and wanting His approval?

"Free will"?

Repentance, more like.
And someone who doesn't repent own his own is not really repentant, is he?

Or "because He first loved me." How do we know He first loved us? While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The thief saw that first hand.
But as I said before, that's not good enough for you. You need something else. Why isn't the salvation through the blood of Christ enough of a first step for you?

I'm basing my answer strictly on the Scriptures, Derf.
If you find me answering anything outside of that, please tell me.
...
I agree.
That passage itself does not say it.

Just read on either side of the ellipsis.
And in fact, God doesn't give the same message you would have to give to Cain. He says:
[Gen 4:7 NKJV] 7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire [is] for you, but you should rule over it."
Faith would exhibit in Cain doing well and ruling over his sinful nature. It wouldn't save him from death, but it would save him from other problems in this life. And he had a promise from God, given through his father Adam, that salvation was on its way. I don't know Cain's final destiny. Neither do you.

But I'm not assuming anything that other Scriptures do not outright declare;
I get my answer from those...
Scripture shedding light on and defining other Scriptures.
There's no reason for me to go outside of it, because it is sufficient.

For example, there's no need to bring in commentaries, systematic theologies or anything of the sort;
As I see it, God's word should always be enough to answer anything related to itself.

But that's exactly what you are doing. You are bringing in a commentary--your own perhaps (I can't say if you came to this viewpoint on your own or through someone else's commentary, but commentary it is). Your appeal to the simplicity of scripture is tainted by your addition to scripture, in two places we've talked about now.

So, if you're truly seeking Him through His word and through prayer, rejoice, for you have been given a very special gift, my friend;
You've been born from above and you have a gift that cannot be purchased with anything that we as men have.

But of what use is that to someone who wants to be saved and isn't on the chosen list? Who sees they can't be saved but through something outside of himself? Yes, you can say that's a special sauce God has applied to this one's life, and not that one's, or you can say they are both convicted by the Holy Spirit. Which is more scriptural? Which is the more profitable, since Paul seems to focus on what's profitable for us?

To the unbeliever who needs to repent and believe, that message is of no use. To the one who has already repented and believed, it is of no use to give to others. And if so useless, is it really the true message of God's word? God seems to delight in practical and useful messages to people.

 

[Dave G]

[Exo 9:16 NKJV] 16 "But indeed for this [purpose] I have raised you up, that I may show My power [in] you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.
God showed favor to Pharaoh, though he wasn't any of those things. And He certainly hadn't decided to save him.

OK, I agree.
God did decide to raise him up, like He did for every king ( Psalms 75:7 ).

For what purpose?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this new question: [Jhn 6:29 NKJV] 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
The thief showed repentance and believed in Him who was sent. Why? The passage doesn't say.

I agree.
The passage doesn't say...

But to me, the one you quoted, does.
If someone believes, it is a work of God.

Repentance, more like.
And someone who doesn't repent own his own is not really repentant, is he?

No, he or she isn't.

Or "because He first loved me." How do we know He first loved us? While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. The thief saw that first hand.

So did the thief on the other side of the Lord.

Again, what was the difference..."libertarian free will"?
To me, that's assumed and not back up by Scripture.

 

[Dave G]

But as I said before, that's not good enough for you. You need something else. Why isn't the salvation through the blood of Christ enough of a first step for you?

Because Scripture tells me that there is much behind His death, burial and resurrection than just the fact that He did.

Just read on either side of the ellipsis.
And in fact, God doesn't give the same message you would have to give to Cain. He says:
[Gen 4:7 NKJV] 7 "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire [is] for you, but you should rule over it."
Faith would exhibit in Cain doing well and ruling over his sinful nature. It wouldn't save him from death, but it would save him from other problems in this life. And he had a promise from God, given through his father Adam, that salvation was on its way. I don't know Cain's final destiny. Neither do you.

God gives the same message through His word...
Salvation by grace alone and not by the works of men.
As for Cain's destiny, he's in Hell ( 1 John 3:12 ), and was a child of the devil per God's word.

But that's exactly what you are doing. You are bringing in a commentary--your own perhaps (I can't say if you came to this viewpoint on your own or through someone else's commentary, but commentary it is). Your appeal to the simplicity of scripture is tainted by your addition to scripture, in two places we've talked about now.

The simplicity of Scripture is in every detail that God reveals.
The simplicity of Jesus Christ is God's grace through His blessed Son, Derf.

I haven't added anything to the Scriptures...
I've taken what is stated in one place, and read it back into passages that don't give answers, from ones that do.

But of what use is that to someone who wants to be saved and isn't on the chosen list?

That depends on whether they want to be saved from their sins, or from the wrath of God and to still keep sinning those sins.
If from their sins because they genuinely care that their sin offends God and they are genuinely repentant, then that itself is a work of God, according to the Bible.


This is my final reply in this thread.
I wish you well, sir.

 

[Scott Downey]

I thought no one seeks after God...

Exactly so, no one seeks for God in their naturally evil fallen condition. You do know that God makes people regenerated (born again) first, then they confess Christ as Lord and believe God raised Him From the dead. Otherwise no one seeks for God, God goes and finds them, those He plans to save. Just like the lost sheep parable, the Shepherd goes and gets His sheep and brings them back rejoicing that what was lost is found. Those lost 'sheep' of Christ were unaware they were His foreknown sheep but God already knew them.
They were called lost sheep of the house of Israel, not lost goats, lost scorpions, or lost devils. The sheep Christ said will hear His voice and then they will follow Him. The others will not hear Christ being the chaff, the sons of the the devil.

Besides all that your not willing to face what I pointed out in Romans are you about God blinding people, so you redirect.

Those other sheep Christ says, have not yet heard His voice... but they are still His sheep! v16...

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

 

[Derf B]

OK, I agree.
God did decide to raise him up, like He did for every king ( Psalms 75:7 ).

For what purpose?

God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts. Whether this or another king, He is able to remove one and put another in his place. But He doesn't necessarily raise every king up. Some are raised up to kingship by birth and go astray (Rehoboam, Manasseh), and that kind might need to be removed, just as your Ps 75:7 reference puts it --putting down one to raise up another. And the context tells why: 10 All the horns of the wicked also will I cut off; but the horns of the righteous shall be exalted.

I agree.
The passage doesn't say...

But to me, the one you quoted, does.
If someone believes, it is a work of God.

Touche', Dave. But again, the context explains: [Jhn 6:32 KJV] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
If they had been given the true bread from heaven, and Jesus says they must eat of that bread to have life, then those that were willing could come to Him. And He didn't need the ones not willing.

So did the thief on the other side of the Lord.

Again, what was the difference..."libertarian free will"?
To me, that's assumed and not back up by Scripture.

No less than your view. People's wills are constantly being mentioned in scripture. To say that all wills are God's will is to make God the author of sin. Is that what you are for?

Because Scripture tells me that there is much behind His death, burial and resurrection than just the fact that He did.

Not trying to be disrespectful, but duh! And more to the belief in them than just the knowledge, of course. The one thief exhibited that extra when he repented and defended Jesus' to the other. But those things aren't the work that saves, even if those are what distinguished him from the other. Jesus' work is the only work that saves. To say that there's an extra work that is needed denies Christ's work's sufficiency.

And if Jesus' work is insufficient, to be replaced with a work of regeneration that isn't His work on the cross, it makes the work on the cross of no use. Jesus then died for naught, because God could have regenerated without it. Such a concept seems antithetical to the gospel.

God gives the same message through His word...
Salvation by grace alone and not by the works of men.
As for Cain's destiny, he's in Hell ( 1 John 3:12 ), and was a child of the devil per God's word.

Aren't we all children of the devil before we repent? If one act of disobedience is enough to put Cain in hell, we've no better destiny. And if we can be saved from it, why couldn't Cain? What do we know of Cain's future life?

But as long as you brought up that verse, It assigns works to their owners: 12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's [own works] righteous.
Cain's were evil, and Abel's "own works" were righteous. Not God's works, at least not from the context. And God specifically tells Cain to change his thoughts that were leading him to the wrong works. Would God tell Cain the wrong thing, saying "you shall (or must) rule over those thoughts"? But these were not salvation (eternal life) commands, as neither were Abel's works, right? So it doesn't apply to the conversation of the "work" of belief.

That depends on whether they want to be saved from their sins, or from the wrath of God and to still keep sinning those sins.
If from their sins because they genuinely care that their sin offends God and they are genuinely repentant, then that itself is a work of God, according to the Bible.


This is my final reply in this thread.
I wish you well, sir.

Thanks for the conversation, Dave. And thanks for letting me have the last word.

Until another thread, perhaps.

 

[Derf B]

Exactly so, no one seeks for God in their naturally evil fallen condition. You do know that God makes people regenerated (born again) first, then they confess Christ as Lord and believe God raised Him From the dead. Otherwise no one seeks for God, God goes and finds them, those He plans to save. Just like the lost sheep parable, the Shepherd goes and gets His sheep and brings them back rejoicing that what was lost is found. Those lost 'sheep' of Christ were unaware they were His foreknown sheep but God already knew them.
They were called lost sheep of the house of Israel, not lost goats, lost scorpions, or lost devils. The sheep Christ said will hear His voice and then they will follow Him. The others will not hear Christ being the chaff, the sons of the the devil.

Besides all that your not willing to face what I pointed out in Romans are you about God blinding people, so you redirect.

Those other sheep Christ says, have not yet heard His voice... but they are still His sheep! v16...

14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

You missed the point. @Dave G caught it and answered well.

I wasn't redirecting, I just didn't have much interest in responding when you have God working against Himself. Matthew 12:22-28, and especially appropriate given the "blind" part.

 

[Reynolds]

Regardless of what man wants or chooses, does God have libertarian free will? A will so free He can make judgment calls, change His mind, and identify and pick futures He desires? All within the confines of His character and promises made?

Furthermore, is God someone Whose omniscience does not bind His omnipotence, in that He can do all He pleases without confining Himself to one future from eternity past?

I assume in this analysis that man's choices have no impact on God's choices.

How could He be complete Sovereign and not have it?

 

[Steven Yeadon]

How could He be complete Sovereign and not have it?

Very good point. Is Sovereignty a God stuck in a single future due to His nature? Or a God that does all He wants all the time, choosing possible futures as He pleases? At least to an American mind I see option two as more sovereign. Thank you.

 

[Reynolds]

Very good point. Is Sovereignty a God stuck in a single future due to His nature? Or a God that does all He wants all the time, choosing possible futures as He pleases? At least to an American mind I see option two as more sovereign. Thank you.

He has no constraints on Him but Him. If there were constraints on Him, then the one who constrained Him would be Sovereign and God would be subordinate.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

He has no constraints on Him but Him. If there were constraints on Him, then the one who constrained Him would be Sovereign and God would be subordinate.

I was making that point with Derf B. That a God Whose nature exacts the world we live in has His nature as His God. It makes no sense, because it makes the world the way it is and us and our fates as necessary, like God. The idea proffered by C.S. Lewis of one possible world falls apart.

IMO God does respond to us as shown in the bible, mainly to our prayers and deeds.

 

[Reynolds]

I was making that point with Derf B. That a God Whose nature exacts the world we live in has His nature as His God. It makes no sense, because it makes the world the way it is and us and our fates as necessary, like God. The idea proffered by C.S. Lewis of one possible world falls apart.

IMO God does respond to us as shown in the bible, mainly to our prayers and deeds.

One problem in trying to understand God is time. We can not think outside of time. God exists outside time. The concept of Eternity is the key.Simply thinking about eternity gives me a headache in mere minutes.
How does that effect Sovereignty? There is not really a past, present, or future. There is just eternity.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

One problem in trying to understand God is time. We can not think outside of time. God exists outside time. The concept of Eternity is the key.Simply thinking about eternity gives me a headache in mere minutes.
How does that effect Sovereignty? There is not really a past, present, or future. There is just eternity.

Well put.

 

[Scott Downey]

You missed the point. @Dave G caught it and answered well.

I wasn't redirecting, I just didn't have much interest in responding when you have God working against Himself. Matthew 12:22-28, and especially appropriate given the "blind" part.

So your human understanding of your 'god' trumps the scriptures. God has no intention of saving anyone except those He has foreknown as His own. Those verses say nothing about God working against Himself. Your operating from a completely foreign concept of God and whom He saves and because of that your blinded. Throw out this human wisdom of yours as it is earthly and not of God. The Kingdom of God will grow and grow, but there are no people who are the sons of the wicked one who become the children of God. The parable of the tares of the field Matthew 13 show that.

Then there is this
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

vs this
23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

The bad ground are sons of the devil, never get saved.
The good ground those planted by the Lord, sons of the kingdom, only they will be given to know with understanding.Becuase God has changed their heart into a new one by regeneration of His Holy Spirit.

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”

11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:

‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 25:34
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Clearly shows only those blessed of the Father inherit the kingdom, and that was designed only for them from the very beginning of time.
This is not for the children of the evil one, the weeds of the field of the Lord planted by the enemy, the devil.

2 Timothy 1:8-10

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Given only to us before time began to be His children, only for the saints that He has called beforehand. This is not given to the sons of the evil one before time began, and sons of the evil one do not become sons of the Father. Which is why you must be born again and that being born is not according to your will and decision, (our workings) it only belongs to God.

Conceptually this is the same as what Paul teaches in Ephesians 1
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[Scott Downey]

i have found the argument against the effective election, calling, foreknowing, predestining, justification of elected persons by God before time began is based on human emotions and human wisdom and human philosophy of this earth as to how people think a loving God should be, and not on scripture, which opponents ignore, redirect, twist.

Just because God commands all persons to repent and believe in Christ, does not mean He actively aids all of them into salvation by direct divine intervention on their behalf. The command goes out to all of the world, yet is only positively received by a few, just like in acts 17, after Paul spoke, a few people came believing what he had said, while the rest called it foolishness.

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”

20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”