I think if that is the case then Christ was NOT "...in all ways tempted as we are,yet without sin"
True!::thumbsup:
Less true
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Does God have totally free will?
- Thread starter 12strings
- Start date
I think if that is the case then Christ was NOT "...in all ways tempted as we are,yet without sin"
True!::thumbsup:
Less true
I remember that one! And I know the context of which He said it. Do you, or have you been drinking that deterministic Crystal Light?
:love2::thumbs::thumbs::love2: Many of the things we argue here may be better understood that way. This may be of interest along those lines when trying to grasp just what time may be or how it relates to God. http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/divine.html
quantumfaith
Active Member
2+2= 4 simply because the system of logic that we have developed called arithmetic and more broadly mathematics defines it as such.
Well, first of all, I hope no one here is expecting me to explain God. I am simply trying to show my view as I have arrived to it from scripture.
The physical world is ruled by laws, and God created those laws. The laws can be known as truths, thus 2 + 2 = 4 in our physical world that God has created, this cannot be broken (at least by us). Now, the fact that God can perform miracles shows he is above those physical laws. It is physically impossible for a man to walk on water, but both Jesus and Peter walked on water. So God can overrule physical laws.
But I believe God has his own laws as well. Truth is truth. I do not believe God can tell a lie, and that lie would be true simply because he is God. This is confirmed by Jesus himself, he said that if he denied he knew his Father, then he would be a liar.
Jhn 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Jesus is God, and Jesus said if he denied he knew his Father he would be a liar. So, Jesus, and God by extension cannot just say ANYTHING and that makes it correct and truth. It must be truth indeed.
Do you understand what I am saying?
saturneptune
New Member
Actually, I stayed home from work today because my back is hurting me. When I was around 16 years old I was riding on the back of a motorcycle with an older friend. He was showing off, going very fast, and I was begging him to slow down. He laughed and went even faster.Yes, I understand. It was a very good post and clear. Are you feeling ok?
There was a sharp S turn coming up, and I was fearful a car would be coming around. My worst fears did come true, as we rounded the curve we were right in front of a car. It was either hit the car head-on or swerve off the road. My friend swerved and we ran into a fence that ran alongside this road. It threw both of us about 100 feet. My back was injured and sometimes it comes back on me, today was one of those days.
So lets review, see if I'm missing something here:
1. Most of us agree that Truth is good and right not because God determined it be so, but because his inate character prevented him from making the choice that lying be good.
2. Some of us agree that the sky is blue because god freely chose to make it that color, and could have just as easily chosen another color and made us therefore think THAT was the best sky color.
3. We disagree as to whether 2+2=4 because God determined it to be so, or because it is logical and God was bound by logic to make it so.
It seems that no one has yet said God has a totally free will...interesting. Most would say his will is bound by his good character.
1. Most of us agree that Truth is good and right not because God determined it be so, but because his inate character prevented him from making the choice that lying be good.
2. Some of us agree that the sky is blue because god freely chose to make it that color, and could have just as easily chosen another color and made us therefore think THAT was the best sky color.
3. We disagree as to whether 2+2=4 because God determined it to be so, or because it is logical and God was bound by logic to make it so.
It seems that no one has yet said God has a totally free will...interesting. Most would say his will is bound by his good character.
Good question!
Would say that God already knew ALL possible decisions/events that could have happen, and that he always chooses what is best one, based upon what is most consistant with His nature and Attributes, and what is best for his creations!
actually, God IS
truth and lying is contrary to truth.
How do we know blue is the color chose? Even the sky is under the curse, maybe blue is a result of the curse.
It is absolute truth. God only determines that which is absolute truth.
Not understanding how you arrived at that conclusion, could you expand more on that thought?
convicted1
Guest
If God manifested in the flesh(Jesus) had the ability to lie, and chose not to, then Moses could have done the same job of dying for us. God can not lie. Jesus is God. Therefore, Jesus could not lie while here on earth. Jesus was/is the perfect, pristine, impeccable, spotless, w/o blemish, Lamb of God.
I'm sure this has been touched upon. One, the Scriptures state that it is impossible for God to lie, and that He cannot deny Himself.
We're told a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, and vice versa.
"Free will," as we define it, does not exist. In order for God to lie, He would first have to be corrupted, and that is impossible, because He is also uncorruptible.
Two: the options for a good material universe are unlimited. We have what God chose to create for Himself and His purposes.
The difference? One is the nature of Heaven, and the other is the nature of earth.
Corruptibility is not a prerequisite for temptation. Adam was corruptible, Christ is not.
psalms109:31
Active Member
We are the branches. God the Father is the gardener. Jesus is the true vine and only in Him can we produce good fruit. So who is the good tree the Holy Spirit? Only God is good.
Last edited by a moderator:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Aaron,
I have a question...not trying to start anything, just really want to understand this perspective.
Do you believe man has anything to do with the determination/development of his nature? For example, the old 'garbage in - garbage out' principle which teaches that if we choose to surround ourselves with negative influences we will be negatively influenced. Our character appears to develop over the course of a lifetime and seems to be directly affected by the choices we make. You seem to suggest that one is born with a fully developed nature (character) and is thus determined by that inborn nature to choose whatever it has be predisposed to choose. (i.e. animal instinct)
I have a question...not trying to start anything, just really want to understand this perspective.
Do you believe man has anything to do with the determination/development of his nature? For example, the old 'garbage in - garbage out' principle which teaches that if we choose to surround ourselves with negative influences we will be negatively influenced. Our character appears to develop over the course of a lifetime and seems to be directly affected by the choices we make. You seem to suggest that one is born with a fully developed nature (character) and is thus determined by that inborn nature to choose whatever it has be predisposed to choose. (i.e. animal instinct)
Keep this statement you just made in mind, we'll come back to it at the end...
-Good point, perhaps there was a better color that will be restored at the end of days...but the question remains. Did God pick that color because it was best, or is it best because God picked it?
I'm still not sure what you mean by this statement. Did God create the mathematical realities that determined that 2+2=4, OR is 2+2=4 absolute truth, which is why God Created the mathematical ideas to express that pre-existing absolute truth?
You said "God is truth". So you are agreeing that God's will is not totally free, because he is not free to be untrue. You are saying, as most here have, that His Will is bound by his good character. There are things he cannot decide to do.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
:thumbsup: Well stated!
I will simply disagree for now- something tells me, however, that the position you take (and those who see as you do) is as much motivated by an unconscious belief that yours is the more pious view to take, and the temptation not to take the LESS pious view is irresistible. Maybe that has something to do with it?
Given your premises I do not necessarily see why he could not. Were he indeed sinless, were God to lay the sins of the world upon his shoulders....dunno what constrains the possibility if God chose to do it that way?
Yes He was, so what? Are these simply pious airs? Especially with this one....
Really????? Not FALSE...... but I have never heard the Almighty described this way. This is an adjective usually reserved for Beaches or impeccably maintained classic cars.
I think 12 strings you would have to even more succinctly define "totally free" That is a phrase not used often.