Does God have two wills?

[JackRUS]

I think that the same argument could be made for a lot of what passes as theology. In fact I have never been very enamored with that term. And Calvinism is as guilty as any, if not more so.

Instead of just going out and doing what God simply asked in taking the Gospel to the whole world and ministering to the poor, some people have to try to figure out why He chooses whom He chooses, and is the list really exclusive or not. I mean, really folks!

I do love the doctrine of eternal security though because it reflects on the Lord as a parent, and it is one of the armors of God, the helmet of salvation that Satan would love to knock off our heads.

During these discussions sometimes I can't help but think that God would like to speak to all of us out of the whirlwind like He did Job and his buddies.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by EdSutton:


James, I believe you might be served to check up on a couple of facts. ...

...please don't misrepresent a story without bothering to check it out. Is that a fair request?

In His grace,
Ed

Ed,

This is more then fair. I am sorry if i mislead. I gave a over all view of the death of Jim. I will say right now, I am the only one in my family that has NOT read a book about him. This i think shows even more the point i was making. His story is well known, even if you have not read it. Gods name was lifted up in the death of a great servent.

Let me say again, I was wrong for misleading. If anyone would like to know more about this story there are many books on this, or maybe ed can start a thread and share what he knows.

Sorry...Jim

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
I'm not sure exactly where you are going with your first question. You seem to be arguing for sin being a part in God's plan. I suppose that in a way it is. But sin is always against His will, hence Mt. 6:10 and all of Scripture for that matter.

Nonetheless, God knew that we were not going to be righteous, so He made us righteous (2 Cor. 5:21) in order to give Him the glory (1 Cor. 1:31) and to cement our love for Him. But that's my opinion.

Here's the passage I have in mind:

Acts 4:26-28 - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed' -- for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

What they were doing was sin, and what they were doing was planned and carried out by God. And yet God is holy and does no sin. I don't know how to put all of that together, but I just thought maybe your statement that "I am quite sure that it is not in His will that any should...SIN!" went too far based on this passage, so I just wondered what you would say. </font>[/QUOTE]I would say that this predestined event that is spoken of here is the crucifixion, and not the sin of the men that carried out the evil deed.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
I would say that this predestined event that is spoken of here is the crucifixion, and not the sin of the men that carried out the evil deed.

How could Jesus be crucified without it being sin? I don't think you can separate the two. 'Splain why I'm wrong, please?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Two wills suggest otherwise.

Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed.

and that it wasn't "his will" that any should perish, that can't be changed either.

Man is free to sow whatever he wishes during the six days, but God has warned that what man sows, he'll also reap, whether to righteousness or death, Jesus died for all sin, making the choice possible for all.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
I would say that this predestined event that is spoken of here is the crucifixion, and not the sin of the men that carried out the evil deed.

How could Jesus be crucified without it being sin? I don't think you can separate the two. 'Splain why I'm wrong, please? </font>[/QUOTE]Because that was the context of the passage.

If you would like to you can search the Scriptures for passages where God predetermined sin, and I will do the same for the crucifixion.

 

[whatever]

The passage says that they were doing what God predestined would take place. If sin took place, well ...

Here's a couple of good ones.

Exodus 14:4 - And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, and the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD." And they did so.

Exodus 14:17 - And I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them, and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host, his chariots, and his horsemen.


Unless you argue that is was not sin for Pharoah to chase after the Israelites, after God had commanded him to let them go, then you got some more 'splaining to do.

 

[JackRUS]

You seem to be comfusing judgement with your arguemnt for God having a will for sin.

Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God hardened it. Just like it says about everyone else in Romans 1.

I sure hope that you aren't arguing that these thoughts of this particular sin were not in the hearts of Pharaoh and the Egyptians until God causes it to happen.

You have some 'splainin' to do to God.

 

[whatever]

"I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they shall go in after them" - God said it, that settles it.

 

[whatever]

"Look among the nations, and see; wonder and be astounded. For I am doing a work in your days that you would not believe if told. For behold, I am raising up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, who march through the breadth of the earth, to seize dwellings not their own. They are dreaded and fearsome; their justice and dignity go forth from themselves. Their horses are swifter than leopards, more fierce than the evening wolves; their horsemen press proudly on. Their horsemen come from afar; they fly like an eagle swift to devour. They all come for violence, all their faces forward. They gather captives like sand. At kings they scoff, and at rulers they laugh. They laugh at every fortress, for they pile up earth and take it. Then they sweep by like the wind and go on, guilty men, whose own might is their god!"

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
I would say that this predestined event that is spoken of here is the crucifixion, and not the sin of the men that carried out the evil deed.

How could Jesus be crucified without it being sin? I don't think you can separate the two. 'Splain why I'm wrong, please? </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus was a "body of flesh" God made for "HIMSELF" to occupy and be crucified for sin.

Jesus's death actualy wasn't charged against anyone, being "foreordainted" by God.

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he (God the father) that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Lu 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

On the Cross, Jesus became sin, the sins of the whole world, so much so that God turned away from looking at him.

2Co 5:21 For he (God) hath made him (Jesus) to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity:

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

If you don't uderstand this, I suggest a study of making his face to shine on you.

Israel sin was not in crucifying Jesus, that was foreordained, but rejecting him was not "foreordained", that was their sin, that's why Jesus said he would, they wouldn't.

Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

Lu 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified,

Until Jesus paid the wages of sin, all men were "sinful".

Israel never "TOOK" Jesus life, he laid it down, He could have stopped it at any point he chose.

1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us:

Mt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?


The "natural man" sees someone kill another and believes they are guilty of murder, but in this case, God had the greater sin, as man interprets it, and in dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus was dying to save those who crucified him as much as anyone else.

Walking this fine line between what is foreordained by God and is not chargable to man,

and what is not foreordained and is chargable to man, fuels the debates between Calvin/Arminians.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Two wills suggest otherwise.

Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed.

and that it wasn't "his will" that any should perish, that can't be changed either.

Man is free to sow whatever he wishes during the six days, but God has warned that what man sows, he'll also reap, whether to righteousness or death, Jesus died for all sin, making the choice possible for all. </font>[/QUOTE]While I am a firm believer in a future 'literal' Kingdom of a thousand year duration, exactly where is it said that-

"God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed."?

I think I must have missed that verse or verses, somehow, and wonder where they are found. Thanks.

In His grace,
Ed

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Two wills suggest otherwise.

Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed.

and that it wasn't "his will" that any should perish, that can't be changed either.

Man is free to sow whatever he wishes during the six days, but God has warned that what man sows, he'll also reap, whether to righteousness or death, Jesus died for all sin, making the choice possible for all. </font>[/QUOTE]While I am a firm believer in a future 'literal' Kingdom of a thousand year duration, exactly where is it said that-

"God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed."?

I think I must have missed that verse or verses, somehow, and wonder where they are found. Thanks.

In His grace,
Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Here ya go.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html#000000

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by EdSutton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Two wills suggest otherwise.

Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed.

and that it wasn't "his will" that any should perish, that can't be changed either.

Man is free to sow whatever he wishes during the six days, but God has warned that what man sows, he'll also reap, whether to righteousness or death, Jesus died for all sin, making the choice possible for all. </font>[/QUOTE]While I am a firm believer in a future 'literal' Kingdom of a thousand year duration, exactly where is it said that-

"God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed."?

I think I must have missed that verse or verses, somehow, and wonder where they are found. Thanks.

In His grace,
Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Here ya go.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html#000000 </font>[/QUOTE]That was some post man!! It must have taken a while to do that study. The sad thing about it...now that your done, be sure it is wrong.

No man knows when...so when you came up with a plan...that means it is not that plan. I'm not laughing this off, nor even making fun of you or the study you made. You did do some nice work.

I came across this same idea that you posted one time while reading The Apostolic Fathers. It was in Barnabas or Clement, i'm not sure which one. That is..the seven day thing. I made for a good thought..and maybe its right..i do not know.

I use to count the numbers and toes and all that too. One day it dawned on me, it really does not matter. Well...that is the way I feel. I mean...all we need to know are the signs....for this is when we are told He will come back. When we see the signs...look up....its coming soon.

Nice post though.


In Christ...James

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by EdSutton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Two wills suggest otherwise.

Jas 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed.

and that it wasn't "his will" that any should perish, that can't be changed either.

Man is free to sow whatever he wishes during the six days, but God has warned that what man sows, he'll also reap, whether to righteousness or death, Jesus died for all sin, making the choice possible for all. </font>[/QUOTE]While I am a firm believer in a future 'literal' Kingdom of a thousand year duration, exactly where is it said that-

"God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed."?

I think I must have missed that verse or verses, somehow, and wonder where they are found. Thanks.

In His grace,
Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Here ya go.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html#000000 </font>[/QUOTE]For what is now, I believe the fourth time I've said this, "Hey! Nice Pictures!"

Now I'll repeat my question. I'm not particularly interested in the charts, per se, for the answer. I merely want to know the book, chapter, and verse, or more than one, as opposed to a theological derivation, for this sentence. Again I quote:

"God said he would let the world last six days and the seventh the MK, that can't be changed."?

A. Where did God say "he would let the world last six days"? I have not found this statement in Scripture, at least not in the KJV or NKJV.
And sorry, the oft made appeal to "a day is as a thousand years" or "a thousand years is as a day" doesn't cut it. Those mean, IMO, exactly what they imply; what they do not say is that "Therefore, we know that 'this old earth' is only going to last for seven thousand years, total, so we are almost there, definitely!", which is what is far too often derived from that analogy, IMO.
The Lord Jesus said something to the effect that no man knows the day or the hour. I'll take his word for that. I also suggest that the week, month, and year are likewise, unknown, to us.

Also, I have another little minor question. Exactly how does one know that Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, on Day Eight. That is another one I did not find in Scripture. Why not Day Nine, or Day Eleven?

I just find a lot of jumping to conclusions on the basis of a 'type' that is often not followed with a NT 'anti-type', to suit me to swallow all this hook, line, and sinker, especially in the area of prophecy. And I am not picking on any when I say this, although I do believe I know probably more about Revelation, than I do for at least half of the other books of the NT. Merely stating a fact.

In His grace,
Ed

 

[JackRUS]

The closest that I have found to this theory is in Hos. 6:1-2.

"After two days will He revive us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight."

Some believe that the two days are two thousand years after Christ (revive us). And in the third millennium sometime He will return for the Millennium.

The next verse..

"Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth."


...seems to suggest that He will come sometime early in the third millennium ('as the morning') and the former and latter rain describes the two commings of the Lord.

But it's just a theory of course. One cannot be dogmatic on this. But it is interesting.

 

[doulous]

 

[johnp.]

Well, I am quite sure that it is not in His will that any should... SIN!

Hello Jack. I draw your attention to Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

But sin is always against His will, hence Mt. 6:10 and all of Scripture for that matter.

It is not against God's will that we sin, without it there would have been no cross. The cross is not a corrective but the kernel of God's plan with sin the prime ingredient of it.

Ex 4:21 ...But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
The Lord hardened Pharoah's heart so that he would not.

I sure hope that you aren't arguing that these thoughts of this particular sin were not in the hearts of Pharaoh and the Egyptians until God causes it to happen.

God caused it to happen. It was God's will to destroy Pharoah publicly and to this end he was controlled. Common sense would have made him give in to Moses.

john.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Common sense would have made him give in to Moses.

john.

For that matter, it is a no-brainer to believe in Jesus and not go to hell. Yet people don't believe. Funny, that.

Important: I do not advocate easy believism, where one presents the gospel as insurance against hell. But it's such a no-brainer to choose heaven over hell, surely one must come to the conclusion that something more profound is involved in believing than just choosing your eternal destiny of your own free will.

 

[J.D.]

By johnp: "The cross is not a corrective but the kernel of God's plan with sin the prime ingredient of it."

That's very well put.

I think of it this way:
(the word "follows" as used here means "comes after")
-God is seeking glory
-glory follows redemption
-redemption follows sin
-sin follows the commandment
-the commmandment follows the decree
-the decree follows the plan
-the plan was from eternity
-from eternity God seeks glory