I never said that YOU DID
I said that when God regenerates our hearts faith logically follows although it’s simultaneous
I said that when God regenerates our hearts faith logically follows although it’s simultaneous
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Does God Hear The Prayers Of The Unsaved?
- Thread starter Piper
- Start date
Dave G
Well-Known Member
" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.".
He does do as He desires.
The Lord Jesus only gives life to all who were given to Him by His Father ( John 17:2 ), and no others.
My friend, what you have posted is a misunderstanding of 1 Timothy 2.
Please read Romans 1 through Romans 11 again, as well as John 1 through John 6. Ephesians 1 through to the end will also help to clear up who the "all men" are in that passage, in addition to the first part of 1 Timothy 2 explicitly giving us the context.
May God bless you.
Yes. Only that evil and adulterous generation of Jews were convicted of all the righteous blood shed on the land.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Quote "No
I said we are regenerate by the preaching of the Gospel
it all happens simultaneously" @Marooncat79 post # 31
So yes you are saying that a person is saved prior to their faith.
What do you do with those that do not accept Christ or those that have to think about it prior to accepting the invitation. So we are not saved/regenerated by the preaching of the gospel. We are saved/regenerated by God because we have believed in His son.
The bible, as you have shown, disagrees with your view
In post # 22 put up these verses in support of your view:
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
But now you are back-peddling because you see that those verses do not support your view.
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No
I said when the Gospel is preached and God changes the heart ie New Birth, salvation occurs
I said when the Gospel is preached and God changes the heart ie New Birth, salvation occurs
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
@Dave G you must think that I have never read all those passages you listed. FYI I have many times. I agree God does as He desires and as we see in
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The desire of God's heart is that all will come to repentance. You must have a different dictionary if you can get a different meaning from those words.
And as Paul tells us in
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
God has provide the means for anyone to come to Him for salvation and we can know this is a universal call because Christ Jesus tells us so
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
We also see this stated earlier in John
Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Paul even tells us how one can come to salvation
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
and again
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
So as Paul clearly says
Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
So @Dave G it would seem that you are the one that need to read those verse again and trust that God will give a proper understanding of them.
You are hanging your hat on three verses that you have misunderstood.
Does God know all those that will freely trust in His son, of course He's omniscient. What you seem to have over looked is that all the called are not chosen, but all that are chosen are first called.
Paul does not deny that many are called who are never justified. He only affirms that this is the method whereby God leads us, step by step, toward heaven. He glorifies none whom he does not first justify, and indeed also sanctify: and he justifies none who are not first called, and obedient to the call. Barnes
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You do have a strange understanding of scripture there KY.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
But one is only given the new birth/saved after they believe not before. It is the result of one believing in Christ that God in His grace saves them.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Salvation is the gift of God
Rom_6:23 the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Man has to change his own heart in relation to God, he has to repent and trust in Christ Jesus. God does not do it for him.
If we followed your logic then anyone that ended up in hell has the best excuse possible for why he should not be there, God did not change his heart. You have made God the one responsible for all those in hell because He did not choose them. But that goes against scripture unless you think God is conflicted or confused.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
There is where we disagree
man cannot change his own heart
changing the heart is something God must do to us and for us
SH. We all deserve hell because of our sins
It is a kind and merciful who chooses to save mankind even if He only chooses to save 1 person throughout the entire annuls of human history
man cannot change his own heart
changing the heart is something God must do to us and for us
SH. We all deserve hell because of our sins
It is a kind and merciful who chooses to save mankind even if He only chooses to save 1 person throughout the entire annuls of human history
...and yours' is typical evangelical status quo, and I'm not alone in 'my understanding':
"...the meaning of elencho, "to bring in guilty; to put to shame by proving one to be wrong; to convict with a view to condemnation and judgment, but not necessarily to convince; to bring in guilty without any confession or feeling of guilt by the guilty one."...........It is rather refutation by proofs, convicting by unanswerable arguments as an advocate, that is meant.".........."Here the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe, but as bringing conviction to the world because of sin...."
The Sinners Prayer
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That the bible disagree with your view does not seem to matter to you. Yes we all deserve condemnation for our sins but even the verses that you quoted show that man can change his own mind.
Take the example of Abraham who is the type for all that will trust in God.
The religious life of Abraham gathers round three leading moments. The first, when God bade him emigrate to Canaan (Genesis 12:1-5); the second, at Mamre, when God first made with the childless and aged man a covenant that he should have a son, etc. (Genesis 15:1-21); the third, when, after the first portion of this promise had been fulfilled, as well as the whole of it sealed by circumcision, Jehovah commanded the child of promise to be sacrificed (Genesis 22:1-24). At all these three turning times in Abraham’s history his confidence/faith in God appeared as the most eminent feature of his character.
The apostle’s argument {Romans 4:1-10} is a very obvious one. There are only two ways of obtaining Divine approval. Either you deserve it, having earned it; then it is a pure debt, and you have something to boast in. Or else you have not earned the Divine approval, but the wages of sin, which is death; only you trust in the promised grace of One who justifies the ungodly; then it may be said that this trust of yours is reckoned as equivalent to righteousness. Now, Abraham’s acceptance was plainly of this latter sort. {Romans 4:3, Romans 4:9} J. Oswald Dykes, D. D.
Go back and read
was Abram seeking God? No
God sought out Abram
was Abram seeking God? No
God sought out Abram
Grace means “unmerited favor” of God ie there is nothing we can do to earn it. Not pray, not work nothing since its all of grace, it is none of me
that’s what scripture means when it says “we are at the mercy of God” - until God does something we can do nothing
that’s what scripture means when it says “we are at the mercy of God” - until God does something we can do nothing
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Yes my understanding is just as the bible has it. The Holy Spirit convicts man of their unbelief/sin, even so although man is convicted that does not mean that they will turn and trust in Christ Jesus.
John 3:18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
He will reprove - The word translated “reprove” means commonly to demonstrate by argument, to prove, to persuade anyone to do a thing by presenting reasons. It hence means also to convince of anything, and particularly to convince of crime. This is its meaning here. He will convince or convict the world of sin. That is, he will so apply the truths of God to men’s own minds as to convince them by fair and sufficient arguments that they are sinners, and cause them to feel this. This is the nature of conviction always.
The world - Sinners. The men of the world. All men are by nature sinners, and the term the world may be applied to them all, Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
The key word here is reprove (John 16:8). It is a legal word that means “to bring to light, to expose, to refute, to convict and convince.” It could be translated “pronounce the verdict.”...The Holy Spirit convicts the world of one particular sin, the sin of unbelief. The law of God and the conscience of man will convict the sinner of his sins (plural) specifically; but it is the work of the Spirit, through the witness of the believers, to expose the unbelief of the lost world. After all, it is unbelief that condemns the lost sinner (John 3:18-21), not the committing of individual sins.
When a lost sinner is truly under conviction, he will see the folly and evil of unbelief; he will confess that he does not measure up to the righteousness of Christ; and he will realize that he is under condemnation because he belongs to the world and the devil (Ephesians 2:1-3). The only person who can rescue him from such a horrible situation is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. There can be no conversion without conviction, and there can be no conviction apart from the Spirit of God using the Word of God and the witness of the child of God.
Wiersbe Bible Commentary
KY it seems you have a low opinion of Evangelicals. Not sure why that would be?
Evangelicals take the Bible seriously and believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. The term “evangelical” comes from the Greek word euangelion, meaning “the good news” or the “gospel.” Thus, the evangelical faith focuses on the “good news” of salvation brought to sinners by Jesus Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
God sought him but Abraham still had to believe. God did not do it for him and He does not do it for us. Go back and read what it says.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I agree we do not deserve salvation or mercy. We can not earn it. And God has done many things to show us that He is. Creation, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the gospel message, etc. What more would you like Him to do?
One is only given the new birth/saved after they believe not before. It is the result of one believing in Christ that God in His grace saves them.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Salvation is the gift of God
Rom_6:23 the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
@Marooncat79 you keep dancing around the obvious point. Man has to believe in Christ Jesus before he is saved
"...It should be very evident that something must be wrong if this verse be interpreted so as to clash with Christ’s explicit statement in John 14:17, "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive..."
...and that's where the disagreement actually begins, kosmos.
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts' , as the ornament of the heavens. 1Pe 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
7a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
8a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Ro 11:12 etc)
8b) of believers only, John 1:29; 3:16; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1Co 4:9; 2Co 5:19
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I agree with you KY you have made a logical error. You are making the assumption that no one can hear the gospel and believe it although we will be judged for our rejection of Jesus.
We know that man can hear and respond to the gospel message:
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
But the clash is only in your mind because you are attaching a preconceived definition to world rather than letting the context show you what is meant.
Thayer has made a logical error when he says that kósmos world G2889 has to mean believers only 8b.
Metonym for the inhabitants of the universe (1Co_4:9).
To go forth into the world means to appear before men as in Joh_3:17, Joh_3:19; Joh_6:14; 1Ti_1:15; Heb_10:5; 1Jn_4:1, 1Jn_4:9; 2Jn_1:7.
Metonymically, the world meaning the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind (Mat_5:14; Mat_13:38; Joh_1:29; Joh_3:16; Rom_3:6, Rom_3:19; 1Co_4:13; 2Co_5:19; Heb_11:7; 2Pe_2:5; 1Jn_2:2).
Hyperbolically, the world for the multitude, everybody (Joh_7:4 "show thyself to the world" means manifest thyself, do not remain in secret; Joh_12:19); metaphorically, that is openly (Joh_14:22; Joh_18:20; 2Co_1:12).
It also stands for the heathen world, the same as tá éthnē (G1484), "the nations" (a.t. [Rom_11:12, Rom_11:15 {cf. Luk_12:30}])
Metonymically for the men of this world as opposed to those who seek the kingdom of God, e.g., with hoútos, this (1Co_1:20; 1Co_3:19); as subject to Satan, the ruler of this world (Joh_12:31; Joh_14:30; Joh_16:11); without hoútos (Joh_7:7; Joh_14:17; Joh_16:8; Joh_17:6, Joh_17:9; 1Co_1:21; 2Co_7:10; Php_2:15; Jas_1:27).
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
And why would they believe if they had not heard the gospel message.
Eph 1:13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Even the verses you reference say they have to hear the gospel first
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?