Does God learn? Reframed Question.

[Winman]

Winman,
Gill has it right, you do not understand what he is saying.
Let me say it this way so you do not think I am just out to attack you as a person...
You being dead set against calvinism strain yourself to twist or rewrite every verse to try and deny the teaching. You do this so much, you are losing any ability to see the truth. I am not kidding with this. Unless you are joking with these posts...this is not good Winman.
Jesus took on a real humanity.....but not a sinful humanity. That is why there wasa virgin birth:thumbsup:

The virgin birth was a SIGN, as we are clearly told in scripture. If Jesus had been born of a woman who was not a virgin, no man would believe he was born of God.

Jesus inherited his flesh and the ability to be tempted from his mother Mary. God is a spirit and cannot be tempted.

And I understood Gill, he got it right this time, Jesus took on himself the nature of the seed of Abraham, and Abraham was born after the fall. It is you and others who pervert scripture when you say he had the nature of pre-fall Adam. God is wiser than man, he made it clear Jesus had the nature of men after the so-called fall.

You simply deny any scripture that doesn't fit your view. Too bad.

 

[OldRegular]

God told Adam in Genesis 2:17. But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now did Adam die the same day he ate of the fruit. No! Then did God lie? NO!

When Adam and Eve sinned they immediately suffered spiritual death, alienation from God. At the same time those natural processes that result in physical death were set in motion; Adam and Eve began to die.

Yes, they died because they sinned, the wages of sin is death.

They died spiritually Winman, they were alienated from God. That is the reason that God made an atonement for them. But as Hebrews tells us and the Cross demonstrates that atonement was only provisional.

The knowledge of good and evil is not evil, God himself has this knowledge.

Has anyone said that the knowledge of good and evil was EVIL! NO! Rebellion against God is EVIL. That is what Adam did. Because Adam sinned all that are in Adam have inherited the sin nature. The Apostle Paul tells us:


1 Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Jesus Christ all who are saved are made Spiritually alive. In the resurrection the body will be raised with a body like that of the risen Jesus Christ. It follows then that both spiritual death and physical death for all are the consequence of Adam's rebellion.

If knowing good and evil is evil, then God is evil, because God himself said he has this knowledge.

You have a unique ability Winman to make some nonsensical statements about God.

 

[Iconoclast]

The virgin birth was a SIGN, as we are clearly told in scripture. If Jesus had been born of a woman who was not a virgin, no man would believe he was born of God.

Jesus inherited his flesh and the ability to be tempted from his mother Mary. God is a spirit and cannot be tempted.

And I understood Gill, he got it right this time, Jesus took on himself the nature of the seed of Abraham, and Abraham was born after the fall. It is you and others who pervert scripture when you say he had the nature of pre-fall Adam. God is wiser than man, he made it clear Jesus had the nature of men after the so-called fall.

You simply deny any scripture that doesn't fit your view. Too bad.

This is blasphemous...I ask that you repent of this vile error.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hebrews 5:
7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey Him.

John 4
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
4Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John—

16He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

Sometime it is best for the part of us learning to let the one we are learning from the Holy Spirit speak

17“I have no husband,” she replied.
Jesus said to her,*“You are right when you say you have no husband.18*The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

 

[jbh28]

And God losing a wrestling match to Jacob doesn't make sense either, but that is exactly what the scriptures tell us.

I personally believe when God appeared to man that he limited himself. No man can look on God and live, yet there are many accounts of men seeing and speaking to God, such as Adam and Eve, Cain, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, etc...

I believe in this limited form God sat aside some of his attributes like his power, glory, and even his omniscience. Thus, God would be completely honest in asking where Adam and Eve were, or where Abel was, asking where Sarah was, going down to Sodom to see if they had done according to the cry he heard, telling Abraham that NOW he knows he fears God.

In this limited form, God can learn.

Learning something you don't know and letting someone beat you in a wrestling match is totally different. If we were speaking of not using knowledge(like not using the power) then you may have a point. But we are talking about all knowing(which the Bible teaches) vs learning something you didn't already know(which is never taught in Scripture). There is no dishonesty in asking where someone is when you already know the answer. It could simply be for the person to admit where they are at.

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus took on himself the nature of the seed of Abraham, and Abraham was born after the fall. It is you and others who pervert scripture when you say he had the nature of pre-fall Adam. God is wiser than man, he made it clear Jesus had the nature of men after the so-called fall.

You simply deny any scripture that doesn't fit your view. Too bad.

Hebrews 2:16
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham

This is talking about the fact that Jesus came to redeem humans, not angels, so He came to earth as a human.

Albert Barnes explains:
But he took on him the seed of Abraham. He came to help the descendants of Abraham, and consequently, as they were men, he became a man.

 

[OldRegular]

One, you cannot prove a negative...and two, your failure to answer says more than anything. I've debated you for 7 years. Unless your view has recently changed you have been in that camp since at least '05.

The above is exactly what I expected from you webdog. You deliberately lie about me and then expect me to prove you are a deliberate, despicable liar! It is you who are responsible to prove the truth of your statement:

He is a primitive baptist (hyper cal). Google it. He believes in the eternal salvation of the elect (pre faith) and the temporal salvation (post).

Your above response demonstrates to others on this Board that you are lying! You know it and you know that you cannot prove you are not lying!

 

[Zaac]

My post wasn't addressed to you. I'm flattered you like to follow me around and all, though.

Oh stop getting all huffy.:laugh: I reply to a lot of stuff that's not addressed to me. You know you don't mind me replying.

You also hold to two salvations?

Jesus died on the Cross ONCE for me and said "telestoi"---it is finished! Why would I need two salvations when one accomplished the job?

 

[Winman]

They died spiritually Winman, they were alienated from God. That is the reason that God made an atonement for them. But as Hebrews tells us and the Cross demonstrates that atonement was only provisional.

What, do you think I don't know they spiritually died? If they were physically dead they could not have come out of hiding and spoke to God. You must think other people are stupid.

Has anyone said that the knowledge of good and evil was EVIL! NO! Rebellion against God is EVIL. That is what Adam did. Because Adam sinned all that are in Adam have inherited the sin nature. The Apostle Paul tells us:

I agree, their disobedience was sin, and this is why they spiritually died. That is a judgment, a condemnation. It does not say God cursed their moral nature.

1 Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In Jesus Christ all who are saved are made Spiritually alive. In the resurrection the body will be raised with a body like that of the risen Jesus Christ. It follows then that both spiritual death and physical death for all are the consequence of Adam's rebellion.

First, this is the ONLY verse in all of scripture that says we are "in Adam". Second, it is speaking of physical death, this whole chapter is dealing with the resurrection of our physical bodies.

It is true that we are all in Adam speaking of our physical bodies. Every man will physically die, and this is what Paul is saying here. This chapter is not speaking of spiritual death whatsoever.

Third, it doesn't say only believers will be resurrected and made alive. All men will be made alive again, even unbelievers. Then they will be judged and cast in the lake of fire, this is the second death.

You have a unique ability Winman to make some nonsensical statements about God.

The only reason they are nonsensical to you is because your mind has been conditioned to understand all scripture from a Reformed perspective. I always post scripture to support my view. I do not redefine words or deny scripture like many others here.

The only ability I have is to read scripture for what it literally says. When God told Abraham "for NOW I know that thou fearest God" I believe it, I do not try to explain it away as you and others do.

If you ever take off those DoG/Reformed/Calvinist blinders, what I say will make perfect sense to you. Try it and see.

 

[Amy.G]

I agree, their disobedience was sin, and this is why they spiritually died. That is a judgment, a condemnation. It does not say God cursed their moral nature.

Then why did they need an atonement?

 

[Amy.G]

It is true that we are all in Adam speaking of our physical bodies. Every man will physically die, and this is what Paul is saying here. This chapter is not speaking of spiritual death whatsoever.

A person is either "in Adam" or "in Christ". There is no one else to be "in". If a person is born "in Christ", then sins and becomes "in Adam", he has lost his salvation, for to be in Christ is to be saved.
Do you believe a person loses his salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

If you ever take off those DoG/Reformed/Calvinist blinders, what I say will make perfect sense to you. Try it and see.

Winman when I was a young Christian, a novice and unlearned in Scripture, I believed as you do. I believed the doctrine of Sovereign Election to Salvation was terrible. I was simply blind to the whole truth of the Sovereign Grace of God. However, in my workplace I knew many "good" men who had absolutely no interest in God or concern about eternity. That was strange to me but it was consistent with what Scripture taught. Through the study of Scripture and by the Grace of God I came to understand the truth of the Doctrines of Grace; Doctrines that Glorify God and Magnify His Grace. For that I will praise Him now and throughout eternity.

 

[OldRegular]

Then why did they need an atonement?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Winman]

A person is either "in Adam" or "in Christ". There is no one else to be "in". If a person is born "in Christ", then sins and becomes "in Adam", he has lost his salvation, for to be in Christ is to be saved.
Do you believe a person loses his salvation?

Amy, you hear all sorts of folks talking about being "in Adam", but it is said only once in scripture, 1 Cor 15:22. This verse is speaking of physical death, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter is speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death. Read it and see.

It is true that when Adam and Eve sinned that God cursed the ground. Thus, all things grow old and die. Animals who do not sin grow old and die, plants die. Even things that are not living grow old and fade away, they rust and corrupt. This is the effect of the curse and it applies to everyone and everything in the universe.

A person is not born dead in sin. I have showed many examples many times, I am sure you have seen, but I will post a few again.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

When the prodigal son repented, twice Jesus said he was alive AGAIN. If a person is born dead in sin, never could it be said he was alive AGAIN.

The whole 15th chapter of Luke refutes Original Sin. First Jesus told a parable of a shepherd who had 100 sheep. One was lost, he searched for it and recovered it. Then Jesus directly tells us this represents a lost sinner. But notice the lost sheep was not lost originally, he was in the flock.

Then Jesus tells a parable of a woman who had 10 pieces of silver. One was lost, she searched for it and recovered it. Again, Jesus tells us this lost coin represents a lost sinner who repents. But again, originally the woman had 10 coins, it was not lost originally.

But notice Jesus spoke of 99 sinners who need no repentance;

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Who are these 99 persons who do not need repentance? If we are all born sinners, there could be no such persons. I believe Jesus is speaking of little children or the unborn who never committed sin. They are saved by the grace of God, but there is no great celebration for them as there is for a lost sinner who repents.

Then we have the eldest son who never sinned against his father and is EVER with him;

Luk 15:25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

The eldest son was a son first. He complained that he had never transgressed his father's commandments at any time. The father did not correct the boy, in fact he confirmed what the eldest son said was true. He called him "Son" and said he was "ever with me", and that all that he had was his.

Now who could this be? If we are all born dead in sin, who could ever be said to have never transgressed God's law and to be "ever" with God?

It was these parables that caused me to question Original Sin. These parables did not make sense if we are all born dead in sin. But then I noticed much scripture that showed we are not born dead in sin. First, there was Ecc 7:29 that says God has made men upright. I noticed that Paul said he was once alive without the law in Romans 7. I saw 1 Pet 2:25 that says we were as sheep going astray but are now RETURNED to Jesus.

I became convinced that Original Sin is false doctrine. Men are not born sinners, they are made upright. Children who die before they reach the age of accountability are saved, they have committed no sin, but there is no great celebration for their salvation. They are like the elder son.

Anyone who reads Luke 15 carefully will see it cannot be explained if Original Sin is true. There would be no 99 persons who need no repentance, there would be no eldest son who NEVER transgressed against his father at any time.

So, I believe the 99 just persons who need no repentance will be the literally billions of unborn or young children who died before they could commit sin.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

As you see, Paul himself said that Jacob and Esau had committed no sin when they were in their mother's womb.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

As you see, God himself said the son shall not bear his father's sins.

Original Sin is utterly false doctrine.

 

[OldRegular]

Anyone who reads Luke 15 carefully will see it cannot be explained if Original Sin is true. There would be no 99 persons who need no repentance, there would be no eldest son who NEVER transgressed against his father at any time.

You err not understanding Scripture and you demonstrate this in your interpretation of the parables in Luke 15. Your post from which the above quote is taken seems to imply that there are those who need no Savior??????? Is that what you really believe!

The term "original sin" as understood by most Baptists means that all have inherited a sin nature because of Adam's rebellion. All will rebel against God and sin in time. That is what Scripture tells us.

Romans 3:10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Isaiah 64:6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Romans 3:10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Isaiah 64:6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Not to put too fine a point on it....but NONE of these passages (strictly speaking) teach "Original Sin" I do not say that "O.S." is false...but consider them all:

Romans 3:10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

This verse CLEARLY teaches that ALL men are indeed sinful, and have failed and have sinned....Pelagius himself, is, in fact, on record having said as much....This verse merely states a fact about sinfulness of all men...It is silent as to anything touching "Original Sin". It says NOTHING, nothing whatsoever about it. This verse is merely a "descriptive" statement about the state of affairs that all men are not, in fact, righteous. Tell us something we don't already know.

Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If THIS verse says anything....it would in fact supports Win's contentions...."all men fall short..." WHY? because...drum-roll please..."All have sinned"...It does not say, (be it true or not) because they have inherited some sinful nature....that is what we are being told to believe...but it states the opposite...it, in fact states...we have come short....because...we sinned. Is there another more esoteric way to understand this, secreted only by the erudite minds of the determinist?

Isaiah 64:6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Again...this verse explains precisely WHY we are an "unclean thing".....because:....drum-roll please...."Our iniquitities" (that would be the ones that we ourselves [not Adam] have committed).

One MIGHT argue that BOTH are, in some sense true....but all three of these verses suggest Win's point, or are at least 100% consistent with it....not the one you contend for....Is Cal Theology no stronger than this? Are there more proof-texts available to actually...REBUTT (in lieu of reinforce) anything he states?

 

[Iconoclast]

Quote:
Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

If THIS verse says anything....it would in fact supports Win's contentions...."all men fall short..." WHY? because...drum-roll please..."All have sinned"...It does not say, (be it true or not) because they have inherited some sinful nature....that is what we are being told to believe...but it states the opposite...it, in fact states...we have come short....because...we sinned. Is there another more esoteric way to understand this secreted only by the erudite minds of the determinist?

Wrong...... All sinned.....at one point in time...when Adam sinned.
The action was completed then.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Wrong...... All sinned.....at one point in time...when Adam sinned.
The action was completed then.

This may in fact, be true.........but it is not "wrong" as you said...THIS VERSE does not SAY THAT. You are required, sir, to show us, from Scripture, where that is stated....it is NOT in THIS verse. I do not deny Original Sin....but you and O.R. are using this verse to demonstrate it...What you just asserted is not written or stated here...if it is true...then please cite the Scripture which states it...You brought up Adam, my contention, was that "Adam" was, at no point, mentioned in that verse...please quote that verse speaking of Adam. You simply do not understand the language we call English...My only contention (I bolded it) was that and I quote myself:

THIS verse

is silent on the topic...please explain your contention of "wrong"?

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, you hear all sorts of folks talking about being "in Adam", but it is said only once in scripture, 1 Cor 15:22. This verse is speaking of physical death, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter is speaking of the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death. Read it and see.

Yes Paul is talking about physical resurrection. Buy why? It's because there was a false teaching that there is no resurrection of the body. Paul isn't addressing the spirit in this passage, so you're not going to be able to make your case from it. He is not addressing the state we are born in. He's addressing a totally different subject.

It is true that when Adam and Eve sinned that God cursed the ground. Thus, all things grow old and die. Animals who do not sin grow old and die, plants die. Even things that are not living grow old and fade away, they rust and corrupt. This is the effect of the curse and it applies to everyone and everything in the universe.

Yes I know that and I've never argued against it.

A person is not born dead in sin. I have showed many examples many times, I am sure you have seen, but I will post a few again.

Sin isn't just something you "do". It's what you "are". Look at Cain. It is clear he was a sinner before he killed his brother. He brought an inferior sacrifice to God, he got jealous of his brother...before he committed murder. These things come from the heart of man showing that sin resides in us from birth. Just as David said:

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David said he was "shapen" in iniquity. Sin was in him from the time he was still being formed in the womb.

Jesus said:
Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Cain was a murderer before he committed the act. He already had a sinful heart. And this was the FIRST generation of Adam!

Original Sin is utterly false doctrine.

No it's not. And I can't believe you belong to a Baptist church that believes otherwise.

 

[Iconoclast]

This may in fact, be true.........but it is not "wrong" as you said...THIS VERSE does not SAY THAT. You are required, sir, to show us, from Scripture, where that is stated....it is NOT in THIS verse. I do not deny Original Sin....but you and O.R. are using this verse to demonstrate it...What you just asserted is not written or stated here...if it is true...then please cite the Scripture which states it...You brought up Adam, my contention, was that "Adam" was, at no point, mentioned in that verse...please quote that verse speaking of Adam. You simply do not understand the language we call English...My only contention (I bolded it) was that and I quote myself: is silent on the topic...please explain your contention of "wrong"?

HOS,

The answer is in the verse and romans 5...here:

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity