Does God learn? Reframed Question.

[OldRegular]

Not to put too fine a point on it....but NONE of these passages (strictly speaking) teach "Original Sin" I do not say that "O.S." is false...but consider them all:

I did not say they proved "Original Sin". I said:

All will rebel against God and sin in time. That is what Scripture tells us.

Why???

 

[Winman]

Not to put too fine a point on it....but NONE of these passages (strictly speaking) teach "Original Sin" I do not say that "O.S." is false...but consider them all:

This verse CLEARLY teaches that ALL men are indeed sinful, and have failed and have sinned....Pelagius himself, is, in fact, on record having said as much....This verse merely states a fact about sinfulness of all men...It is silent as to anything touching "Original Sin". It says NOTHING, nothing whatsoever about it. This verse is merely a "descriptive" statement about the state of affairs that all men are not, in fact, righteous. Tell us something we don't already know.

If THIS verse says anything....it would in fact supports Win's contentions...."all men fall short..." WHY? because...drum-roll please..."All have sinned"...It does not say, (be it true or not) because they have inherited some sinful nature....that is what we are being told to believe...but it states the opposite...it, in fact states...we have come short....because...we sinned. Is there another more esoteric way to understand this, secreted only by the erudite minds of the determinist?

Again...this verse explains precisely WHY we are an "unclean thing".....because:....drum-roll please...."Our iniquitities" (that would be the ones that we ourselves [not Adam] have committed).

One MIGHT argue that BOTH are, in some sense true....but%2

 

[MorseOp]

You are now way off topic. Go start a thread on original sin.

 

[Winman]

You are now way off topic. Go start a thread on original sin.

You are new here, very new. If you were here for any length of time, you would know that almost all threads go off topic like this.

Relax and go with the flow.

 

[MorseOp]

You are new here, very new. If you were here for any length of time, you would know that almost all threads go off topic like this.

Relax and go with the flow.

Why not start a new thread and remedy the problem? Is it really that difficult?

 

[Iconoclast]

Not to put too fine a point on it....but NONE of these passages (strictly speaking) teach "Original Sin" I do not say that "O.S." is false...but consider them all:

This verse CLEARLY teaches that ALL men are indeed sinful, and have failed and have sinned....Pelagius himself, is, in fact, on record having said as much....This verse merely states a fact about sinfulness of all men...It is silent as to anything touching "Original Sin". It says NOTHING, nothing whatsoever about it. This verse is merely a "descriptive" statement about the state of affairs that all men are not, in fact, righteous. Tell us something we don't already know.

If THIS verse says anything....it would in fact supports Win's contentions...."all men fall short..." WHY? because...drum-roll please..."All have sinned"...It does not say, (be it true or not) because they have inherited some sinful nature....that is what we are being told to believe...but it states the opposite...it, in fact states...we have come short....because...we sinned. Is there another more esoteric way to understand this, secreted only by the erudite minds of the determinist?

Again...this verse explains precisely WHY we are an "unclean thing".....because:....drum-roll please...."Our iniquitities" (that would be the ones that we ourselves [not Adam] have committed).

One MIGHT argue that BOTH are, in some sense true....but%2

The answer is in the verse and romans 5...here:

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity


Every time you post ecclm 7:29 you deny this truth...everytime. This is what the verse actual teaches.

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

Why not start a new thread and remedy the problem? Is it really that difficult?

Why don't you just go where the thread goes? Once you have been here awhile you will see this is normal. You will do it yourself, wait and see.

You just don't like what I said. Perfectly understandable. Maybe you are beginning to see, but I think not.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The answer is in the verse and romans 5...here:

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity

Aha...now we get somewhere...and we are talking Scripture no??? If you will condescend to me....well...I don't (personally) understand this post....I think you were inserting hyperlinks like here:

(Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/.

Well, they aren't working obviously...can you possibly re-furbish them for us? Personally, I would like to hear some of your responses to the Scriptures Win posts....I am new enough...and although, I am obviously not saved in your world, I woul like to know how you would respond to them. Thus far , all I have (personally, as a newer member) heard is something like.."and don't post "opinions 8:14 again" and blah blah...but I have never heard you interact with..."opinions 8:14" know what I mean? You have already stated this:

Every time you post ecclm 7:29 you deny this truth...everytime. This is what the verse actual teaches.

Well, personally, I have not heard anyone actually engage said passage and explain where Win goes wrong here: I have only heard an ad nauseum about how he is a moron, and un-biblical, and immune to truth, and blah blah blah....more "Win is a retard"....heard it a million times over...I have heard Cals call Win an idiot more times than I can count...For us newer members, who have yet to see it demonstrated...Why is it exactly? Where does he specifically go wrong with these? If you choose not to oblige me...that's o.k. I understand. Would like to know though.

 

[mandym]

Why don't you just go where the thread goes? Once you have been here awhile you will see this is normal. You will do it yourself, wait and see.

You just don't like what I said. Perfectly understandable. Maybe you are beginning to see, but I think not.

Why don't you just not derail the thread.

 

[jbh28]

Why don't you just go where the thread goes? Once you have been here awhile you will see this is normal. You will do it yourself, wait and see.

You just don't like what I said. Perfectly understandable. Maybe you are beginning to see, but I think not.

Just because it happens doesn't make it right. It's against forum rules. The mods must be on vacation this week.

But of course God knew you would derail the thread because he knows everything.

 

[Winman]

Just because it happens doesn't make it right. It's against forum rules. The mods must be on vacation this week.

But of course God knew you would derail the thread because he knows everything.

You guys are derailing the thread now. I was responding to people who asked me questions from yesterday.

I have already answered what I believe concerning the OP. I believe there is real evidence God limits himself when appearing directly to men. The scriptures say no man can look on God and live, yet the scriptures tell us God appeared to men many times. It was at these times that God spoke as though he was not omniscient, so I believe in these instances God truly limited himself, just as he limited his power when he wrestled Jacob.

See, you cannot explain away Jacob prevailing over God in a wrestling match and you know it. You cannot deny that God limited himself. My argument is simply that God could have, and may have limited his omniscience in certain situations as well. This way God could honestly ask questions such as where Abel was, or tell Abraham that NOW he knows he fears God.

Your argument is that God says things he does not mean. That is very close to calling God a liar.

 

[jbh28]

... It was at these times that God spoke as though he was not omniscient, so I believe in these instances God truly limited himself, just as he limited his power when he wrestled Jacob.

See, you cannot explain away Jacob prevailing over God in a wrestling match and you know it. You cannot deny that God limited himself. My argument is simply that God could have, and may have limited his omniscience in certain situations as well. This way God could honestly ask questions such as where Abel was, or tell Abraham that NOW he knows he fears God.

Well first of all, the "you know it" was totally unnecessary as I have explained it. I have not need to explain it "away."

Now, your first sentence I quoted above is interesting. You said "as though." I'm assuming by that you mean that he is speaking "as thought he was not omniscience but he still was omniscient. In other words he wasn't utilizing the knowledge that he had. It would be like someone asking another person a question they already know the answer to. But they just want to hear them actually say it.

As far as Jacob story goes, God limiting his power doesn't mean that he doesn't have the power. (If you let your child beat you in an arm wrestling match it doesn't mean that you didn't have the power to beat them, just you didn't use it.) Just like if God were to ever limit his use of knowledge, it wouldn't' mean that he doesn't have that knowledge.

God wasn't asking where able was because he didn't know and he didn't' say that "now I know" because he didn't know before. Those are assumptions that are being made only if we read the text as a child would read it. Was God really wondering what Abraham would do? No, of course not. But after Abraham proved himself, God now knew by Abraham's action. It's not that he didn't already know what the result would already be. God is eternal.

Your argument is that God says things he does not mean. That is very close to calling God a liar.

Where have I ever used that argument? God does mean what he says, but I know how to read above a 1st grade level. I also believe the Bible when it says God knows everything. So no, I don't call God a liar because he NEVER says that there is something he didn't already know.

 

[Winman]

Well JBH, I don't think God let Jacob win. I think Jacob really and truly won the wrestling match.

What I am saying is that in order for God to appear to men he must limit his attributes or men would fall dead on the spot. In this form he is truly limited, Jacob was able to truly win the wrestling match, and God was sincerely asking where Abel was, and he was being sincere when he told Abraham "for now I know that thou fearest God".

At the same time, God is in heaven and knows everything. Let me show a verse to explain.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you see what Jesus is telling Nicodemus here? Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he was in heaven! This is while Jesus was sitting or standing right in front of Nicodemus!

Was Jesus really and truly present with Nicodemus? Of course. Was Jesus really in heaven at the same time? Yes.

Now, Jesus that was truly standing in front of Nicodemus was limited. He got hungry, he got tired, he could be injured and bleed, he could physically die.

Is the same true of Jesus who was in heaven at the same moment? NO.

We cannot understand this, but both are true.

And Jesus when he was on the earth said he did not know when he would return, only his Father. He was limited, he was not omniscient.

If you guys can figure this out, you are better men than me. Nevertheless, I believe both are true.

 

[Iconoclast]

Aha...now we get somewhere...and we are talking Scripture no??? If you will condescend to me....well...I don't (personally) understand this post....I think you were inserting hyperlinks like here:



Well, they aren't working obviously...can you possibly re-furbish them for us? Personally, I would like to hear some of your responses to the Scriptures Win posts....I am new enough...and although, I am obviously not saved in your world, I woul like to know how you would respond to them. Thus far , all I have (personally, as a newer member) heard is something like.."and don't post "opinions 8:14 again" and blah blah...but I have never heard you interact with..."opinions 8:14" know what I mean? You have already stated this:


Well, personally, I have not heard anyone actually engage said passage and explain where Win goes wrong here: I have only heard an ad nauseum about how he is a moron, and un-biblical, and immune to truth, and blah blah blah....more "Win is a retard"....heard it a million times over...I have heard Cals call Win an idiot more times than I can count...For us newer members, who have yet to see it demonstrated...Why is it exactly? Where does he specifically go wrong with these? If you choose not to oblige me...that's o.k. I understand. Would like to know though.

My computer does not post the actual greek which was included here...it demonstrates what the verses actually say....and they teach original sin in Adam. When he sinned and died so did we, He was mankinds representative

8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event,

This is a past completed action.It was an actual event that happened at a point in time.
i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity

The verse winman twists over and over again ...eccl 7:29 teaches that God made man upright...as said in Gen 1 :31
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day

It does not teach as winman posts that all men are born sinless until they sin.
This is a denial of the passages in Romans and everywhere else.

I am new enough...and although, I am obviously not saved in your world, I woul like to know how you would respond to them.

I have not said that you are not saved.You are badly mistaken on some doctrinal issues from what I can see....at least from what my calvinist over-lords have taught me. or is it just my calvinist polemic?

Those who oppose the truth of calvinism are manifesting major errors here.

 

[OldRegular]

Well JBH, I don't think God let Jacob win. I think Jacob really and truly won the wrestling match.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[MorseOp]

Well JBH, I don't think God let Jacob win. I think Jacob really and truly won the wrestling match.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Not only has God's omniscience died in this thread; now His omnipotence has bitten the dust. Go figure.

 

[jbh28]

Well JBH, I don't think God let Jacob win. I think Jacob really and truly won the wrestling match.

Well, that would be heretical as worded as it would make Jacob better than God. It would deny God's sovereignty and his omnipotence.

What I am saying is that in order for God to appear to men he must limit his attributes or men would fall dead on the spot.

So God limits...He let Jacob win.....

In this form he is truly limited, Jacob was able to truly win the wrestling match, and God was sincerely asking where Abel was, and he was being sincere when he told Abraham "for now I know that thou fearest God".

No, the text doesn't allow for that. You are making a wild assumption that isn't warranted in the text. Of course God knew where he was at. He was there you know.

At the same time, God is in heaven and knows everything. Let me show a verse to explain.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Do you see what Jesus is telling Nicodemus here? Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he was in heaven! This is while Jesus was sitting or standing right in front of Nicodemus!

Was Jesus really and truly present with Nicodemus? Of course. Was Jesus really in heaven at the same time? Yes.

Now, Jesus that was truly standing in front of Nicodemus was limited. He got hungry, he got tired, he could be injured and bleed, he could physically die.

Is the same true of Jesus who was in heaven at the same moment? NO.

We cannot understand this, but both are true.

And Jesus when he was on the earth said he did not know when he would return, only his Father. He was limited, he was not omniscient.

If you guys can figure this out, you are better men than me. Nevertheless, I believe both are true.

That's a far cry from what some have said in that God doesn't know something. Yes, Jesus became man. But to say that God doesn't know something isn't biblical.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not only has God's omniscience died in this thread; now His omnipotence has bitten the dust. Go figure.

This is almost unbelievable.....but nevertheless you can see that when people turn from light, only darkness is left.

35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.