Does God love the non-elect?

Hello Soulman.
[bump]
Thanks I get it. Worked didn't it.

I like Pink as well but don't tell the boys! If God hurts a person by way of sending him to Hell then He does not love them and never did. Doesn't matter how much we think that stinks the idea being expressed by God is one of His Sovereignty and must be accepted. We are not to judge Him. He said about Esau that He hated him. Romans 9:13 ..."Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Doesn't matter what you do to that word 'hate' it will never become love.

You are bringing your expectations and claiming that you could have done things better. Far from taking a stand for God you oppose Him with your idea of 'nice'. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Romans 9:15. Is His answer to 'nice'.

Now you do what the world does by judging others falsely. I know some Calvinists might end up miserable and law entangled but you should not judge doctrine by looking at men but scripture. Paul did not think Calvinism was dangerous nor did it make him exclusive and lazy, "1 Cor 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed."

john.


Hello TexasSky.

It is, so to think that God will stop loving a person is unthinkable because that would not have been love in the first place. Love never fails.

The God I know is love as well but when He casts people into Hell I cannot see love in action. Love never fails and if He loved those He sends to Hell then love is not worth a light.

Not so we were thrown out and you will see that He prevented us from gaining life by ourselves by hiding the tree of life! Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
He will save His people. Only.

john.

 

I am of Peter. I am of Paul. I am of Apollos. I am of Calvin. I am of Arminius.

What did the Apostle Paul say to the Assembly at Corinth? "You act like babies. I am glad I did not baptize you. You are carnal".

Let us follow Jesus--He does not get confused.

Selah,

Bro. James

Hi, JohnP--keep the faith.

 

Hello Soulman.

So He says.

You mean when He judges the unrighteous their offences are inexcusable? That's right and no one denies it do they? But we are no different from them are we?

You have chosen your God by your preference. No sir. I am claiming that God did do better. I know the idea that man is sovereign appeals at the centre of a man's heart, I am the same, but the centre of a man's heart is corrupt. Any choice you make as a sinner will only be sin. An attempt to see the Kingdom of God before you are born again will end in failure because God has hidden the tree of life. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
He must not be allowed. The story has always been the same. That is the good news right there in the early pages of Genesis. God is my salvation. "My sin I will wear on my head as a crown and I will walk into His presence like a prince! Brilliant that ain't it? Job said that. That's what hiding the tree of life does for me.
I choose to believe in a God of compassion for lost man. Yes sounds nice doesn't it. Sweet Jesus meek and mild is not a scriptural representation of the Rock. EX 33:19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. It's His decision not yours. And He is just. So He says. Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." The very thing you believe would make Him just is the very thing God refutes! Heavy ain't it?

He must not be allowed. Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life. Hidden, the tree of life, and guarded against man.

This is how God works in the world: GE 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. Do you understand that? Before Adam and Eve had heard the word repentance God provided a sacrifice, the first recorded death, and clothed them, spilt blood for them so they had cover from their nakedness, forgave them because God chose to.

What you think?

john.

 

Greetings Bro. James.
john.

 

Someone wrote: The God I know is love as well but when He casts people into Hell I cannot see love in action. Love never fails and if He loved those He sends to Hell then love is not worth a light.


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This is a statement I am surprised to see on this board, but one I often hear from athiests.

The phrase, "casting into hell," is one of the most disturbing ones in all of Christiandom because people just do NOT get the whole picture.

A loving, omnipotent God who created 2 paradises. Heaven and Earth. In heaven, an angel living in that paradise said the equivalent of, "Forget this! I could do what you do! I could be God." And God said, "No, you couldn't," and He cast Satan out of heaven.

Now - where did Satan's demons come from? Were they people that God randomly chose to be thrown out? No. They were former angels who made a informed choice to reject God and follow Satan. They were not cast out of heaven. Their LEADER was cast out of heaven and they followed him right into hell.

Adam and Eve were in the second paradise. They were given everything, including the tree of eternal life. Only one thing in the entire universe was forbidden. The one thing that would make man wrongly assume he could become God. The one tree that would cause man to commit the same errors that Satan and the Demons committed.

Adam and Eve had a choice. Follow God - or Follow Satan. Follow the Creator of all Things who have given them Paradise, or follow the loser who had already rebelled against God and lost.

They made a choice to follow Satan. God didn't "cast them into hell," he cast them OUT of the paradise that THEY REJECTED when they chose to follow Satan instead. Now, by your argument, God should have said, "Okay, so you totally ignored me, so you chose to follow Satan into hell, so you rebelled against me to side with the creature who tried to overthrow heaven - its okay. You can still have paradise." What a ridiculous thought!

Man chose to follow Satan into hell instead of following God, and because of that choice man was forbidden the tree of life and paradise. Don't blame God. They knew they were disobeying God.

Now, here we are again.

That same God is offering us paradise.
That same Satan is saying, "Forget him, follow me instead."
God is saying, "He is leading you into hell, but I leave the choice up to you. Here is my son and a pardon for having followed the rebel, and there is the rebel. Choose who you will follow. He will take you into hell, I will take you into heaven."

And many are STILL making excuses to follow Satan, but now, now they want some kind of escape clause. They're like the little bratish bullies you somtimes meet in school who refuse to obey any of the rules, beat up their classmates, skip class, refuse to study, fail everything, disrupt class and then say, "You can't expel me! You owe me an education! You're depriving me of my right to an education!" They deprived theirself.

If you end up in hell, it is NOT because an unloving God cast you into hell. It is because you looked a loving God in the face, spit on him, and said, "I'd rather be with Satan."

Don't try to blame God for your rebellion and your ignorance.

God told you the truth.
God told you the consequences.
God offered you eternity in paradise.
God paid the admission price.

If you throw all that away and choose hell instead, don't call Him unloving. Call yourself a fool.

 

TexasSky

What are the things man must do to merit salvation? You have shown if they do not do the right things it is because they are a fool. Is it that some are not smart enough to be saved? I really would like to understand just what you are saying, and I'd like to see the Scripture that supports your doctrine.

By grace,
Bob Krajcik

 

Hello TexasSky.

RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

john.

 

For those who don't realize it, this means that you will agree with me.

 

Here's a question. If Calvinism is true and God hates most of mankind...what in the world does He love some of YOU for..and why did He choose YOU???

If Calvinism is true (and it isn't) then God is responsible for sin, evil, etc. It is only logical and Calvinists like to be "logical". If Calvinism is true and we are to be "like Christ" then we don't have to love most of mankind. After all...we are to be like Christ no?

 

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Romans 9:15. Is His answer to 'nice'.

I hear Calvinists quoute this often. They seem to forget...maybe this verse is directed at THEM. God saying I will have mercy on whomever, not on whom YOU think I should. hmmm?

 

Hello Soulman.

All saved? Potentially you mean? You say 'were' do you mean are? To make the same choice as Adam made would mean that we should be given the same circumstances then no? Do you mean that there is one point in our lives, an age of responsibilty, when we make a decision and it sticks to us? Or is it more of a fatal choice as opposed to the other righteous things we did? When? Are we told by God Himself or do we hear it off other people like Eve did?

All are? Yes we do because we are created in the likeness of Adam, not God. That's why we are as capable as him of making the same choice. Like father like son man. God's Law of nature.

john.

 

Some seem to think the Lord did not love them any differently than He loved the one that is eternally lost, and that the Lord shed His blood for them no different than He did for the one that is eternally lost, and that the Holy Spirit deals with them no differently than He does with the one that is eternally lost, and that their faith is the same as the one eternally lost, except for the object of the faith. But why the difference in faith? What then, are some better than others that are not saved? What is different that one is saved and another is not? Is one saved because of their family, because of themselves, or because of other men that wanted them saved?

Is salvation for the men that earn it by their merit?

 

In the dark. . .?

2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

Elitest argument does not hold water.

So why speak as though the bette man won salvation? One side of this question about the way of salvation shows the one saved must make a better choice, and why would that be, unless they were better of coarse.

 

Say, I thought you were a believer. That of coarse would mean he selected you.

 

IMO, One can be saved, but very wrong about some doctrine, even having some false hopes, but yet still be saved. Such lack of understanding demonstrates very little of faith, and might offer very little joy or hope, but even so one believer is not more saved than another. As students, we have much to learn and ought to be open to follow on to better know the Lord. It is natural tendency to argue and holds one position, or to insist another is wrong and even attempt to persuade them against their own mind. It ought to be realized, we have not all come in the unity of the faith, while at the same time we ought not allow ourselves to be tossed about by others. These things apply to me, as well as any that will hear.

Confidence is gained, IMO, realizing it is Christ that has begun a good work, and it is Christ that will finish that work.

http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/faithofgod.htm

 

This doesn't depend on "CAlvinism" per se. God himself declares that he hates sinners, and since all men are sinners, God hates all men, whether you are a Calvinist or not.

Fortunately, God has answered this one. He chose us that we should be the praise of his glory (Eph 1), that we as simple things should put to shame the wise of hte world (1 Cor 1:18ff). He loved us for his own sake, not for ours primarily.

No, God is not responsible for sin.

Think about the point you are trying to make here. You are arguing that if Calvinism is true, then God is resopnsible for sin. What kind of argument is that? It isn't exegetical because Scripture says no such thing. It is logical. You are the one insisting on logic, not us. We are exegetical. We believe that the Bible teaches God is in control of all things and that he is not the author of sin. Therefore, we are willign to let what might seem a contradiction in logic to stand because we believe the Bible more than logic. You are trying to assert your logic as the test of truth, even at the expense of Scripture.

Christ does love all mankind.

How do you think Hebrews 12:4-12 plays into this, where we are told that God disciplines those whom he loves because they are his sons. It indicate that if you don't have discipline from God, you aren't his son and he doesn't love you in the same way.