Does God love the non-elect?

Bob...hey man...I am a believer. And He selected me because I believe in Him.

PastorLarry...so God hates mankind...but loves them? Can you make up your mind please? And when I said "what in the world does He love some of you for?" I was being facetious; sarcastic. Seein as Calvinists take pride in being "the elect" and really don't care about the lost. If they did, they would not give them an insincere gospel. And the Calvinist gospel IS insincere.

Yes, if we are pre-ordained to sin then God is responsible. Who can resist His will? If He ordains one to rob a bank then God is responsible for robbing that bank. Again...who can resist His will? (since you Calvinists like using that verse)

I am only insisting on logic because Calvinists are so high on logic. At least the ones at my church.

How can you say Christ does love all mankind...yet at the beginning of your post you said he hates all mankind? Let me know when you want to make sense. No wonder I left Calvinism...I saw the utter lunacy of it. By the way, I mean no disrespect to you...I just hate your Calvinism.

Now...tell me how I can believe the Bible when it says that God hates all mankind, then God loves all mankind, then God only loves some of them (in fact, a small minority of them)? Wanna know why I hate Calvinism? Because it doesn't make sense, it makes God a devil, and it has seriously harmed my faith. But I bet that won't bother any of you Calvinists right? Yeah, I thought so. Go stick to your "theology" while the rest of us who don't "get it" languish and drift off to hell.

 

I don't have to make up my mind. God said both, and that is good enough for me.

That's false. Every major modern missions movement was started by Calvinists. Calvinism is very evangelistic and rightly so ... CAlvinism is the only doctrine that actually gives us a reason to evangelize.

 

What's the point of selecting if it is up to you?
If you choose Him, He just has to sit back passivly and see who choses him. This is horrible logic.

Did Bush choose the ones that ELECTED him? I don't think so KJ.

 

Who's thinking linear now? What does God have to do with Bush? You now believe we pick our theology by comparing it to human politics? Man oh man...

What's the point of selecting? Ask Him. He is the one who gave the responsibility (and ability) to ALL mankind to repent and BELIEVE in His Son, Jesus Christ. That is the doctrine I believe...but that makes me a heretic eh? Calvinists, disgusting.

 

I'm saying what's the point of HIM selecting US?
Not us selecting Him...

The example was VERY valid. You said if God selected you BECAUSE you selected Him... that is like Bush CHOOSING those who would vote for him AFTER we already voted... him choosing us is USELESS! Thus God choosing us is useless. The problem with you though is you have to throw it in since God Choosing is so obvious you just can't discard it. Unfortunately you force it into a man centered, unbiblical belief to which it sticks out like a sore thumb. It makes no sense. But rather to disregard the fallacy you just grasp on to it, God forbid if you give Him any power!
Answer the question ! Do you think before you answer?

 

Yes I think before I answer. Do you think before you ask stuipd questions? I know exactly what I said and I said "What does God have to do with Bush? You now believe we pick our theology by comparing it to human politics? Man oh man..."

Keep it up with nasty comments...your fruit shineth through Calvinist. Just so you know, I could be three times as mean as you but I am considering you a brother. Just a deceived one. Unlike what you think of me...the heretic huh?

By the way...where did I NOT give God any power? The power of God is the cross. It's not "making" someone believe. It is giving mankind the free will to believe. Only a Calvinist would call a Christian taking God at His Word a heretic who denies Him any power. Also, you said "God forbid if you give Him any power". What? I don't have to give Him any power. He already has power. Keep the laughs coming will ya...

 

James,

I think it is necessary for you to back off the rhetoric and verbiage you are using in here. You have already been edited twice today for inappropriate comments. This is a discussion for Christian people to carry on in gentleness and humility. It does get heated at times, but help us to raise the level of conversation. Do not lower it.

Repeated infractions will lead to suspension and then a permanent ban. You are welcome to espouse a view of evangelical theology, even though it might differ from mine. Theology is never a factor in editing posts. However, demeanor and language is. Please help to raise the level.

Larry

 

What's the point of selecting if it is up to you?
If you choose Him, He just has to sit back passivly and see who choses him. This is horrible logic.

Did Bush choose the ones that ELECTED him? I don't think so KJ. </font>[/QUOTE]1. All agree that God has perfect foreknowledge which means that the outcome of an event was foreknown "perfectly" from eternity past. God had to "choose" THEN not just today.

2. Some here will admit that President Bush does not have perfect foreknowledge. So your analogy does not hold.

3. "Whom HE FOREKNEW He PREDESTINED to be CONFORMED to the image of His Son". God's predestination ONLY works like "that" in scripture. -- And He perfectly foreknew ALL from eternity past.

So when He WEEPS over the lost and when He says "ALL My compassions are stirred up" OVER THE LOST - it is not so much a "surprise" that they are lost - as a tragedy!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Thanks Soulman --

And now lets review "again" just how MUCH of God's compassion is "stirred up" in that weeping and concern for the wicked!!

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

In Christ,

Bob

 

And He perfectly foreknew ALL from eternity past.

Again you are jumping out of the context. The foreknowing is strictly confined to those He GLORIFIED. He PRESDESTINES those He Glorifies.

In the negative, those He Doesn't PREDESTINATE, He doesn't glorify.

 

So Bob, what does Hebrews 12:4-11 say about God's love for the non-elect. In taht passage, it specifically says that whom God loves he disciplines, and some of them are without discipline because they aer illegitimate children, meaning that God doesn't love them in the same way that he loves others.

 

Pastory Larry --

Lets take this one step at a time.

So far RC and JP and Hardsheller all seem to agree with Edwards that Rev 14 has the saints SEEING the torment of ALL wicked!

#1. Do you agree as well?

So far NNE has jumped off the cliff with JP claiming that "Election is determined by genetics".

Do you agree that "Election is NOT determined by genetics"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Those questions are irrelevant to my question. I have not followed the discussion about Rev 14. I will say that election is not determined by genetics; it is determined by God's pursuit of his own glory. I don't know what was said about that either.

But none of that has anything to do with my question.

 

Larry, I am having difficulty figuring out why you found it necessary to address me on this when you should have seen that I responded as a Christian should after those posts were edited. And why you found it necessary to ONLY address me...when you saw that someone else's posts were edited as well.

Yes, I can keep the conversation gentle and with humility...the question is can THEY? Even you implied that I was a lost and depraved soul because I am not a Calvinist. No...one is lost if they are not a CHRISTIAN. I hardly think I did anything deserving of banning in light of the fact I have been called a hell bound heretic and other such nonsense.

Again, I can discuss things with gentleness and humility...I EXPECT the same from everyone else.

 

Hello Bob.

Pastor Larry says:
I will say that election is not determined by genetics; it is determined by God's pursuit of his own glory.
And as you know Bob that is what I said at the beginning. You it was that twists it. Not that I mind just that you should be careful how you misrepresent people because God don't like it. That He told us.

What is this you have about the salvation of the children's children? Bothers you don't it? HaHa! Good.
It must be an awful irritation to you because you are going around telling everyone I said election is determined by genetics! Even poor old inpeace got an earful of johnp. shoved down his neck and he is new here and on his own thread!
Now I'm a townie but I know that when I hear a squawking going on I think I should pay attention to it.

#1. What is love Bob please explain it to me.

Does God love the non-elect? Define love.

john.

 

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Jesus.

 

"Not that I mind just that you should be careful how you misrepresent people because God don't like it."

hmm...interesting...

Does God love the non-elect? Define love? Shouldn't you have to prove that He doesn't? So far...ya haven't. Oh..and define hate and help me to understand how a God who IS LOVE created man that He hates? I look forward to your help.

 

If you look at the date of that post, you will see that I posted it several days ago, right after your posts were edited. I did not see that anyone else's posts were edited. I was told that you were edited for your comments. I made my comments based primarily on your posts on the top of this page.

 

Hello KJ.

Have to? Prove? No.

I would have thought that a God that abhors sinners and sends them to Hell where they will suffer Hell foever and ever and with torture to boot knows a thing or two about hate. Do you deny my desciption of Hell or have you thrown that doctrine overboard like others of your persuasion? Just asking.

If you still believe in the Hell of Hells how can you imagine that God will do that to those He loves? Strange love!

Without looking at the dictionary I would say it is the opposite of love!

Love is a decision that one makes to do good to another. That is all that love means. It has nothing to do with anyone else! The object of your love cannot influence it in anyway even by rejection. It's your decision to do another good and no one can command you otherwise. Committed to another for their good. To live for their well being. That never fails. True love.

Hate is a decision you make to do another harm.

and help me to understand how a God who...created man that He hates? Is what I will answer.
There is no answer there is a very strong warning not to push here.
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

It's like it is man and there's nothing to be done about it but accept the Sovereign Lord's word that He creates some for Hell or at the very least you question whether He can or not.
Do you say He has no right to make some for Hell and some for glory?

Your servant KJ.

john.