Does God love the non-elect?

If you look at the date of that post, you will see that I posted it several days ago, right after your posts were edited. I did not see that anyone else's posts were edited. I was told that you were edited for your comments. I made my comments based primarily on your posts on the top of this page. </font>[/QUOTE]Larry my post that was edited was posted at 12:53pm. Your comment to me was posted at 1:21pm. I think from your latest comments you should have found out the whole situation rather than going by "what you were told" as I am rather offended that you only addressed ME. I think you should have read the other people's posts that were edited and addressed them as well. I will forgive your lapse of judgement though. Remember gentleness and humility Larry. Thanks and God bless.

 

By the way Larry, could you show me where at top of the page that you were talking about in regards to my comments? I called the guy a brother, a deceived one but a brother nonetheless. I in turn have been called a hell bound heretic. I am not a hell bound heretic but I AM confused here.

 

Have to? Prove? No.

I would have thought that a God that abhors sinners and sends them to Hell where they will suffer Hell foever and ever and with torture to boot knows a thing or two about hate. Do you deny my desciption of Hell or have you thrown that doctrine overboard like others of your persuasion? Just asking.

If you still believe in the Hell of Hells how can you imagine that God will do that to those He loves? Strange love!

Without looking at the dictionary I would say it is the opposite of love!

Love is a decision that one makes to do good to another. That is all that love means. It has nothing to do with anyone else! The object of your love cannot influence it in anyway even by rejection. It's your decision to do another good and no one can command you otherwise. Committed to another for their good. To live for their well being. That never fails. True love.

Hate is a decision you make to do another harm.

and help me to understand how a God who...created man that He hates? Is what I will answer.
There is no answer there is a very strong warning not to push here.
RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

It's like it is man and there's nothing to be done about it but accept the Sovereign Lord's word that He creates some for Hell or at the very least you question whether He can or not.
Do you say He has no right to make some for Hell and some for glory?

Your servant KJ.

john. </font>[/QUOTE]John...actually you should have to prove it. God says He IS love...and you are saying He hates most of mankind. As for Him hating people He casts into hell...well...He does weep over the lost, no? Besides, hell is punishment. Does that mean parents who punish their children, hate their children?

 

Hello KJ.

No you err KJ that's Arminian for usurping the Holy Spirit's function! It is the Holy Spirit that convinces I put down what I believe as best I can and argue my beliefs but I don't believe I effect anything. Any effect is purely of God for the good or bad because He says so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. ISA 55:11.

God is Just. God is Faithful. God is The Light. God is The Truth. To the elect.
For the others He is Hell.
You haven't mentioned Hell. Think of it this way. Two weeks just sitting on a feather bed is bad enough but start to count the millions of years just sitting on a feather bed and you might start to see the horror of Hell and Hell is no feather bed.

The reprobate has no Tears shed for him he is in rebellion and will be treated as one treats traitors to the Crown.
You show me a sovereign ever shed a tear for a traitor born and bred.
Has He not the right to make some for common purposes to reveal His wrath?

Hate the emotion or hate the decision? If I punish my kids I fall some way short of everlasting fire man! That's for keeps.

john.

 

I still think you should have to prove it John. How can a God who IS love hate most of mankind? He can be vengeful, angry, wrathful, etc. but He is NOT anger, wrath, etc. He IS love though. Anyway...I am tiring of the Calvinism debate. I am struggling with my faith enough as it is w/o being called a hellbound heretic by "Calvinists" who care nothing for my soul but sure like to argue.

KingJames out...

 

Top of page 4. So far as I know, this issue is closed. You agreed to watch your posting demeanor. I will take you at your word for that. It is a closed issue.

BTW, do not quote entire lengthy posts in your response. Quote only the part you are responding to (such as I did). It will save space.

 

Hello KJ.
Lev 26:30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.

Lev 26:44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God.

abhor-synonym see HATE

proved

john.

 

Hello Soulman.

Yea man I know.

Election should be understood by democratic peoples. I understand how Americans can have little idea of sovereignty but at least election should be comprehensible to you.
How can you believe what Jesus says if you mistreat words like that? Election, look it up. I suppose Pres Bush is elected because you went and saw that he was elected and so voted for him? Predestination means predestination whether it is liked or not.

john.

 

That is a strong Calvinistic statement. I wouldn't call us "pompous" when you say what most of us would say.

I have never met a Calvinist who is pompous or who think he/she is special because they were chosen. The very fact of being chosen rules that out. You are the clay; you can't take pride in something you didn't do. Calvinism rules out pride; it does not engender it.

 

Hello KJ.
Lev 26:30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.

Lev 26:44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God.

John...you proved nothing with those verses. First, are they not talking about ISRAEL. Second, this abhorring is talking about people doing something SPECIFIC. It is not that God abhorrs most of mankind for no reason. My friend, you haven't proved anything.

LOL...the second verse even says He WOULD NOT abhorr them!

 

Top of page 4. So far as I know, this issue is closed. You agreed to watch your posting demeanor. I will take you at your word for that. It is a closed issue.

BTW, do not quote entire lengthy posts in your response. Quote only the part you are responding to (such as I did). It will save space. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, this issue is closed. However I wanted an explanation for your post. Frankly, I disagree with your assessment but that's fine. I just expect the same standards to apply to everyone else.

From now on if someone is caustic to me and you don't confront them about it, I will either TELL you...or I will confront them myself. I'm going to follow the rules here but I will not tolerate personal attacks against myself that are allowed simply because I am not a Calvinist.

 

Hello KJ.

Well regardless of the point you make my point stands. God abhors whoever it was He was abhoring and that has been continuosly denied by some. God hates sins not people they say but, "I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you."

Proves God hates people as well as their sins. That's the win. There could be many side issues but the point is made.

"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

That He will not destroy Israel completely is not quite the same as you suggest. But a remnant is left the rest are abhored. He is Faithful. The chosen nation will never be destroyed.

john.

 

John...no win my friend.

I have a question...did God ever hate you?

 

Although one may not be proud because he's chosen, he may be proud for another reason; and it has been my misfortune to interact with more than a few who fit that description.

Discovering and embracing Calvinism does strange things to some people, and the effects are disturbingly consistent from victim to victim. It gets to where you can recognize the syndrome as clearly as a Boston accent.

None of y'all, of course. I'm thinking about others I've met through the years.

 

Hello Soulman.

God's choice is based on what we did? He knows we will accept so He elects us. This is what you say? If you do you need to believe 'elect' are elect not that they elect themselves. You change the meaning.

Hello KJ.

Your assessment is faulty. God abhors does He not a yes or no will do?

No. He does not change but He gave His life for me before the creation of the world. His love has been mine since then.
LK 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Hello Pipedude.

Calvinism rules out pride; it does not engender it.
All have sinned.
RO 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

john.

 

Johnp qouted these verses:

Lev 26:30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars and pile your dead bodies on the lifeless forms of your idols, and I will abhor you.

Lev 26:44 Yet in spite of this, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them or abhor them so as to destroy them completely, breaking my covenant with them. I am the LORD their God.

John, I guess I will have to look at the context of those verses. Both are talking about Jews, some He abhorrs and some He doesn't. I am mystified as to the humongous ego you display here though. Is the Sovereign God proud of your pride? Did He sovereignly ordain you to be that way? Will He sovereignly ordain your pastor to knock it out of you?

If it is necessary to be a Calvinist to be saved (and that is what you imply), then why don't you be a little more like Christ and a lot less like Johnp, and show you actually care about our welfare.

[ June 23, 2005, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: King James ]

 

"His people" are all that repent.

 

Hello KJ.

Fair comment. I see it.

He loves me and is conforming me into the likeness of His Son why, are you saying He is too slow or something?

He did.

I have no knowledge of His plans as to what He intends to knock out of me. I have no Pastor. Our Church considered we do not need one. We are all grown up. We are in merger talks with another Pastorless Church. When we merge a Pastor maybe on the agenda. Who knows God might make me Pastor! HaHa! Then watch my ego!

I spend many hours composing these posts so care of that sort I do. If you mean have I any feeling for you I have none nor am I concerned with your welfare. God is Sovereign it is for Him to decide regardless of me. I obey Him. Love is not a feeling it an act of the will. Cold I am. Love is cold, it is to decide to do good to another.
To be saved one needs to believe in the One He sent not be a anything. But a Calvinist is compelled to preach the truth. If you believe you can fall away then you do not believe Christ died for your sins and we cannot say you are saved because you don't believe Christ died for your sins. It's a warning to you that you have not entered His rest until you rest. I ceased all selfrighteousness because Christ died for my sins.

Not so.
JN 10:14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
Jesus talks of His sheep yet to repent.

john.