Does God need a mother?

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
Doesn't Luke 1:43 come pretty close, though?

Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"


Lord="Kyrios"=God is another legitimate translation of the Greek here (check Strong's)

Does it say that Abraham is God too ?
Read the following:
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord : whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Remember that there was no distinction of Captial letter and small letter in the texts

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jesusrocks:
Doesn't Luke 1:43 come pretty close, though?

Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"


Lord="Kyrios"=God is another legitimate translation of the Greek here (check Strong's)

Does it say that Abraham is God too ?
Read the following:
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord : whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Remember that there was no distinction of Captial letter and small letter in the texts </font>[/QUOTE]No, Abraham is not God, but Jesus is... so the substitution could legitimately stand in the passage from Luke, but not from Peter's epistle, because "God" does not describe who Abraham was, but it does describe Who Jesus is.

I don't have a problem with the title because it protects the divinity of Christ. Jesus is God.

It's sad that so many tear down a great woman of faith--of the Bible-- because of overly Catholic fears. The Bible calls her blessed among women, and we see her great faith in the Lord demonstrated. She is a model for all women, just as Abraham was a great model of faith in God.

Anyhow... Mary was the "mother of the Lord" at any rate... and any women who has children will argue that women are mothers of PERSONS, not of bags of flesh. Calling Mary the "mother of God" doesn't elevate her, because it only describes her Son... and His divinity, not hers.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[QB] No Bible writer said "God has a mother"

No Bible writer calls Mary "The Mother of God".

Red hering.

I could also say...
No Bible writer said "God is Trinity" or "God is one undivided essence in three distinct Persons"

Nor did any Bible writer ever say "The Word is consubstantial with the God the Father". IN FACT, Arian heretics seized on this absence of such an explicit statement (and term) to show that Christ was not one essence with the father.

Therefore, it should be evident that the absense of a specific phrase or term from the Bible doesn't automatically make such a phrase or term false.

 

[jesusrocks]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jesusrocks:
[QB] Doesn't Luke 1:43 come pretty close, though?

Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Close -- but "no cigar".

If the RCC had been content to just LEAVE IT at the Luke 1:43 statement we would not be seeing THEM talk about "gathering to Mary's altars to worship". </font>[/QUOTE]I wasn't aware this was in relation to the RCC...

the title can stand whether Catholics believe it or not, no matter what Catholics do with it. the purpose of the title, as has been brought up with the Council of Ephesus, is to protect the divinity of Christ from the Nestorian heresy. Jesus is God. Period.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by natters:
Bob, no one is saying Mary was the origin of God.

Certainly the Bible writers said no such thing.
</font>[/QUOTE]And certainly no one here is saying it either.

Just as "Mary Mother of God" attacks the deity of Christ specifically in the attribute of "eternal pre-existence".

Only if one persists in ignoring what others are saying.

Instead of honoring the INCARNATION of God the Son it seeks to recast God into PROCREATION terms "MAry mother of GOD"...

No it doesn't. Mother doesn't mean origin.

Do you think the mariolotry of "Worship at Mary's altars" has NOTHING TO DO with claiming that she is "The Mother of God"??

Maybe they're connected for some, but they - like you - are using the wrong meaning of the term.

The point is NOT the "Mary teacher of Jesus" or "Joseph teacher of Jesus" is a problem in the least!!

Is Jesus God? Yes or no. If yes, that's all we're saying. If no, we're done.

This point has been made repeatedly.

Yes, because you repeatedly miss the bigger point.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by jesusrocks:
I don't have a problem with the title because it protects the divinity of Christ. Jesus is God.

It's sad that so many tear down a great woman of faith--of the Bible-- because of overly Catholic fears. The Bible calls her blessed among women, and we see her great faith in the Lord demonstrated. She is a model for all women, just as Abraham was a great model of faith in God.

Anyhow... Mary was the "mother of the Lord" at any rate... and any women who has children will argue that women are mothers of PERSONS, not of bags of flesh. Calling Mary the "mother of God" doesn't elevate her, because it only describes her Son... a Calling Mary the "mother of God" doesn't elevate her, nd His divinity, not hers. [/QB]

1. What I wanted to show you by mentioning Abraham is that Mother of Lord was not necessarily meaning Mother of God, because Lord (Adonai) was often used for indicating any superior person and Elisabeth didn't mean she is Mother of God. Therefore your formula (Kurio=Lord=God) doesn't stand.

2. Mary was a believer in the Lord. Not only Mary but also many other women were blessed by God too. Indeed Mary did the most important role, but she was a human and called herself as a handmaid, and she was a person needing a Savior (Lk1:47) because she was a sinner heading toward the hell without the redemption Jesus Christ, but saved by the grace of God based on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. She is a creature before the Creator Jesus.
That is why she sometimes made mistakes,i.e. she called Joseph as the Father of Jesus, but Jesus answered He had to be at His Father's business. (Lk 2:48-49) Her understanding about the Father of Jesus was different from what Jesus was talking about.
She was moved by the brothers of Jesus (her sons) and came to tell Jesus something. We can presume that she tried to ask Jesus to refrain from preaching for fear of condemnation by the people. Jesus said who is my mother ? (Mt 12:48)
Whoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, sister, and mother!(Mt 12:50) He didn't say " Look at my Mother!" or" Look at the Mother of God!"
She was supposed to listen to Him but instead went there to tell something to Him with the unbelieving brothers. This is why Jesus assigned her to John because she was so weak to be moved by His brothers who were unbelieving at that time. She never predicted the resurrection of Jesus. If she knew it, she would not have been to the tomb with perfume. It is very much significant that Jesus showed up to Mary Magdalene first, not to Mary His mother.

The reason why the believers refuse Mother of God is because it leads to the misunderstanding about the creature as the word Mother means to all human being, with only one exception of Jesus, Pre-existence and Production. No one existed before his or her mother. But God existed before Mary and the word Mother of God elevates the creature above Creator.

3. This is why Heb 7:2-3 rejects that Son of God has Mother.
The 2 verses say both Melchisedec and Son of God
1) King of Righteousness
2) King of Peace
3) No Father (earthly)
4) No Mother
5) No geneology
6)No beginning
7) No ending
8) Living forever
9) Priest
In those 9 aspects both persons are the same (Heb 7:15) therefore Jesus , Son of God, was declared as a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

If the Hebrews writer recognized Son of God has Mother of God, he wouldn't have mentioned No Mother as a common point. This coincides with the fact that none of the apostles called Mary as Mother of God. Instead they called " Mother of Jesus, Mother of Lord, Mother of Joses, Mother of James " (Mark 15:40, 15:47, 16:1, Luke 24:10)or simply woman (Gal 4:4)
Gal 4:22-26 mentions Sarah-Jerusalem is our Mother. We can find Mary exalted so much as Sarah nowhere in the Bible.

4. Historically, Mother of God lead to the Maria worship as Holy Mother of God, and Idol worship of Mary's statues.

I mentioned Human Syllogism doesn't work in the Bible interpretation in other thread " Does God have a Mother?"
by illustrating : Word was God, Word became flesh, God became flesh, God didn't become what is not God but God indeed, therefore Flesh is God. We have to worship flesh as God - a silly comedy. In many other illustrations, I explained Human Syllogism is a silly comedy in God's view.

Therefore we have to stay on the exact expression used in the Bible. Namely we can call her, Mother of Jesus, Mother of Lord. Isn't that enough? then you may have to much eagerness to exzalt and venerate a creature even above God, to worship a Goddess,which has been a big human problem throughout the history.

[ December 18, 2005, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Elisabeth didn't mean she is Mother of God.

Then what did she mean? In what way did she believe the child was her "Lord"?

Whoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, sister, and mother!(Mt 12:50)

See - even Jesus used the term "mother" in a way that did not mean "Pre-existence and Production".

This is why Jesus assigned her to John

See - Jesus was not saying Mary was the origin of John. He used the word "mother" in a way that did not mean "origin of".

The reason why the believers refuse Mother of God is because it leads to the misunderstanding about the creature

A misunderstanding that is easily cleared up. Some refuse the term Trinity, because they think it means three gods - another misunderstanding that is easily cleared up.

as the word Mother means to all human being, with only one exception of Jesus, Pre-existence and Production.

False. Ask anyone who has been adopted.

But God existed before Mary

Everyone here agrees.

and the word Mother of God elevates the creature above Creator.

No it doesn't, just as the term "father David" (Luke 1:32) doesn't elevate David above the Creator.

3. This is why Heb 7:2-3 rejects that Son of God has Mother.

If your understanding of that passage is correct, why do so many other verses say Mary was his "mother"?

4. Historically, Mother of God lead to the Maria worship as Holy Mother of God, and Idol worship of Mary's statues.

Just because something is abused, doesn't mean the thing itself is wrong.

I mentioned Human Syllogism doesn't work in the Bible interpretation in other thread " Does God have a Mother?"
by illustrating : Word was God, Word became flesh, God became flesh, God didn't become what is not God but God indeed, therefore Flesh is God. We have to worship flesh as God - a silly comedy.

Yes, it is silly comedy. It is also a silly strawman.

Namely we can call her, Mother of Jesus, Mother of Lord.

But if Jesus is God, then what's the difference? Also if "Mother of Lord" is OK with you, how do you explain that he existed as "Lord" before Mary gave birth to him? Doesn't that go against all the pre-existence arguments you have been repeating?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by natters:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Elisabeth didn't mean she is Mother of God.

Then what did she mean? In what way did she believe the child was her "Lord"?

She just believed anyone very much superior and didn't have any theology at all. I explained this already, mentioning Sarah called Abraham as Lord. Did she mean God? Did Elisabeth knew about Trinity?

Whoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, sister, and mother!(Mt 12:50)

See - even Jesus used the term "mother" in a way that did not mean "Pre-existence and Production".

This is why Jesus assigned her to John

See - Jesus was not saying Mary was the origin of John. He used the word "mother" in a way that did not mean "origin of".

That is the case Jesus meant Mother as in Mt 12:50.Whosoever does the will of God is His mother. So, mother of John meant " mother in the faith" as you can read 1Tim 5:2

The reason why the believers refuse Mother of God is because it leads to the misunderstanding about the creature

A misunderstanding that is easily cleared up. Some refuse the term Trinity, because they think it means three gods - another misunderstanding that is easily cleared up.

Historically it was not cleared up. Such expression caused " Mary worship, Mary Statue worship, Mary's statue bleeding from the eyes, Holy Mother of Church, merciless killing of believers who refuse such calling, prayer to Mary, Immaculate Conception Hoax, Assumption, etc."

as the word Mother means to all human being, with only one exception of Jesus, Pre-existence and Production.

False. Ask anyone who has been adopted.

True : Nobody created his or her mother, except Jesus

But God existed before Mary

Everyone here agrees.

and the word Mother of God elevates the creature above Creator.

No it doesn't, just as the term "father David" (Luke 1:32) doesn't elevate David above the Creator.
Do you call David as "Father of God" ?

3. This is why Heb 7:2-3 rejects that Son of God has Mother.

If your understanding of that passage is correct, why do so many other verses say Mary was his "mother"?
Not the Mother of God. The writer knew the fact that Mary was His mother, but ignores her in mentioning Mother of God

4. Historically, Mother of God lead to the Maria worship as Holy Mother of God, and Idol worship of Mary's statues.

Just because something is abused, doesn't mean the thing itself is wrong.

Our Holy Spirit in us prohibits any exaltation of creature above God.

I mentioned Human Syllogism doesn't work in the Bible interpretation in other thread " Does God have a Mother?"
by illustrating : Word was God, Word became flesh, God became flesh, God didn't become what is not God but God indeed, therefore Flesh is God. We have to worship flesh as God - a silly comedy.

Yes, it is silly comedy. It is also a silly strawman.

Namely we can call her, Mother of Jesus, Mother of Lord.

But if Jesus is God, then what's the difference? Also if "Mother of Lord" is OK with you, how do you explain that he existed as "Lord" before Mary gave birth to him? Doesn't that go against all the pre-existence arguments you have been repeating? </font>[/QUOTE]Human concept of Lord is not connected with Pre-existence and Production while God is connected with Pre-existence and Creation.

[ December 18, 2005, 10:36 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

[Eliyahu]

If you examine your heart and find why you are not satisfied with Mother of Lord but seek Mother of God, then you can find the difference between 2 concepts.

 

[natters]

If you examine your heart and find why you are not satisfied with Mother of Lord but seek Mother of God, then you can find the difference between 2 concepts.

I have examined my heart, and I see no difference between the terms, since Jesus is Lord and Jesus is God.

 

[Eliyahu]

If you do not find any difference, why do you want to add to what Bible expresses?

I already told you Human Syllogism doesn't work in Bible interpretation.

In your logic,
If Mary is Mother of God,
Holy Spirit is God, therefore Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit too.
God the Father is God, therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father too.

In such a logic, (either Syllogism or not), you reach the funny result and eventually you are meaning Mary is Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit!

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
She just believed anyone very much superior

What does this mean?

She called Mary the mother of her Lord. Who was she referring to, and how was that person her "Lord"?

So, mother of John meant " mother in the faith" as you can read 1Tim 5:2

But you said "mother" means to all human being, with only one exception of Jesus, Pre-existence and Production. Now you are agreeing it has other meanings. Good for you!

True : Nobody created his or her mother, except Jesus

I agree! But many people have had a "mother" that didn't mean "Pre-existence and Production".

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
No it doesn't, just as the term "father David" (Luke 1:32) doesn't elevate David above the Creator.

Do you call David as "Father of God" ?
</font>[/QUOTE]Scripture calls David "his father". And David called him his "Lord". He is Lord and God of his fore-father, David.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
If your understanding of that passage is correct, why do so many other verses say Mary was his "mother"?

Not the Mother of God.
</font>[/QUOTE]Is he "God"? Yes or no. Simple.

Our Holy Spirit in us prohibits any exaltation of creature above God.

No one is disagreeing.

I mentioned Human Syllogism doesn't work in the Bible interpretation in other thread " Does God have a Mother?"
by illustrating : Word was God, Word became flesh, God became flesh, God didn't become what is not God but God indeed, therefore Flesh is God. We have to worship flesh as God - a silly comedy.

Yes, it is silly comedy. It is also a silly strawman.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
But if Jesus is God, then what's the difference? Also if "Mother of Lord" is OK with you, how do you explain that he existed as "Lord" before Mary gave birth to him? Doesn't that go against all the pre-existence arguments you have been repeating?

Human concept of Lord is not connected with Pre-existence and Production while God is connected with Pre-existence and Creation.</font>[/QUOTE]I don't understand your answer, or what it has to do with my question. Can you answer more clearly?

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
If you do not find any difference, why do you want to add to what Bible expresses?

I do not believe I am adding to what the Bible expresses, any more than I am adding to what the Bible expresses when I use the word "Trinity". Mary was the mother of Jesus. Jesus is God, the Word, made flesh.

I already told you Human Syllogism doesn't work in Bible interpretation.

So you say. Yet you never explain why, except by building some silly strawmen as examples.

In your logic,
If Mary is Mother of God,
Holy Spirit is God, therefore Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit too.
God the Father is God, therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father too.

In such a logic, (either Syllogism or not), you reach the funny result and eventually you are meaning Mary is Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit!

Again, you obviously need to better understand the orthodox explanation of the Trinity. I suggest the Athanasian Creed as a great starting place.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
In your logic,
If Mary is Mother of God,
Holy Spirit is God, therefore Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit too.
God the Father is God, therefore Mary is Mother of God the Father too.

In such a logic, (either Syllogism or not), you reach the funny result and eventually you are meaning Mary is Mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit!

Excellent point. But ALSO you get into things like "Mary is allpowerful like God" and "At the command of Mary ALL obey EVEN GOD"!!

Those documented RC statements are "perfectly predictable" given the "Mother of God" excess as a starting point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[natters]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But ALSO you get into things like "Mary is allpowerful like God" and "At the command of Mary ALL obey EVEN GOD"!!

Those documented RC statements

If those are documented RC statements, are you able to provide the reference information?

 

[BobRyan]

"Mary is all powerful with her divine Son who grants all graces to mankind through her" - Pope Benedict XV, Fausto Appetente Die

"All power is given to Thee [Mary] in heaven and on earth that at the command of Mary all obey, even God." - Alphonsus de Liguori, Roman Catholic Cardinal and "saint", from his book The Glories of Mary

Since the Mother, then, should have the same power as the Son, rightly has Jesus, who is omnipotent, made Mary also omnipotent; The Glories of Mary. (pp 180-181)

"She is omnipotent, because by her prayers she obtains whatever SHE wills. (The Glories of Mary pp 182)

"With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to [bvenerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God[/b], conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because,
while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race." - Pope Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus

Of course when you consider that God -- (Father Son and Holy Spirit ) is in fact "All powerful" it is no wonder that "The Mother of God" is given all those powers listed above!!

Hence the Bible writers NEVER use the term!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by natters:

1) Do you think Elisabeth knew about Trinity and meant Mother of God? Why didn't she call her Mother of God?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />


But you said "mother" means to all human being, with only one exception of Jesus, Pre-existence and Production. Now you are agreeing it has other meanings. Good for you!

It is very much silly understanding!
When you call Mary Mother of God, do you mean Mary is Mother of God in the sense of faith as Jesus said whosoever does the will of God is my mother? Then every believing women are to be called Mother of God too. Is your wife a believer? then she is Mother of God too!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
True : Nobody created his or her mother, except Jesus

I agree! But many people have had a "mother" that didn't mean "Pre-existence and Production".

Many? who?

No it doesn't, just as the term "father David" (Luke 1:32) doesn't elevate David above the Creator.

Do you call David as "Father of God" ?
</font>

Scripture calls David "his father". And David called him his "Lord". He is Lord and God of his fore-father, David.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
If your understanding of that passage is correct, why do so many other verses say Mary was his "mother"?

Not the Mother of God.
</font>[/QUOTE]Is he "God"? Yes or no. Simple.

Human Silly Syllogism
Inquisitors question. I firmly believe Jesus is God, but do not call Mary as Mother of God, because if so, it cause misunderstanding as if I call Mary as Mother of God the Father and Mother of God the Holy Spirit. Even Mother of God the Son is not right because, she didn't exist before God the Son existed, but she was created by Son of God. She is not the mother for the fact that Son of God existed. She is neither mother of God the Father, nor Mother of God the Holy Spirit, nor the Mother of God the Son who created her.

Our Holy Spirit in us prohibits any exaltation of creature above God.

No one is disagreeing.

I mentioned Human Syllogism doesn't work in the Bible interpretation in other thread " Does God have a Mother?"
by illustrating : Word was God, Word became flesh, God became flesh, God didn't become what is not God but God indeed, therefore Flesh is God. We have to worship flesh as God - a silly comedy.

Yes, it is silly comedy. It is also a silly strawman.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
But if Jesus is God, then what's the difference? Also if "Mother of Lord" is OK with you, how do you explain that he existed as "Lord" before Mary gave birth to him? Doesn't that go against all the pre-existence arguments you have been repeating?

Human concept of Lord is not connected with Pre-existence and Production while God is connected with Pre-existence and Creation.</font>[/QUOTE]I don't understand your answer, or what it has to do with my question. Can you answer more clearly? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I already told you that
Lord is used anywhere, without difference to the Pre-existence while God existed before anything else.

Lord doesn't mean necessarily Creator but God always means Creator above all and of all things including Mary

 

[Eliyahu]

Natters,

Why are you so eager to call Mother of God, instead of Mother of Lord?

Your answer will answer your question about the difference!

 

[Eliyahu]

Natters I think I answered you enough. If you don't understand, please pray and think about it.

Have you ever been born again?
If you have been born-again, I am sure you can understand this very well.

 

[natters]

Thanks for the references, BobRyan.

When you call Mary Mother of God, do you mean Mary is Mother of God in the sense of faith as Jesus said whosoever does the will of God is my mother?

No, but that's the point! "mother" has more than the single meaning you're trying to pin us to!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
I agree! But many people have had a "mother" that didn't mean "Pre-existence and Production".

Many? who?
</font>[/QUOTE]Anyone who wasn't "produced" by their mother. Like adopted children. As for "pre-existence", I do not know of any examples except Christ, but it's not an inherent requirement of the meaning of "mother", and it is conceivable that a woman becomes the "mother" (through adoption or marriage or other means) of someone older than her (for example, marrying a man who's first daughter is older than her, or adopting an older mentally ill woman still needing parental care).

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Is he "God"? Yes or no. Simple.

Human Silly Syllogism
Inquisitors question.
</font>[/QUOTE]It is neither. The answer is simply "yes".

I firmly believe Jesus is God, but do not call Mary as Mother of God, because if so, it cause misunderstanding as if I call Mary as Mother of God the Father and Mother of God the Holy Spirit.

Lots of things cause misunderstandings. If it happens, you clear up the misunderstanding.

Even Mother of God the Son is not right because, she didn't exist before God the Son existed

Then why is "Mother of Lord" OK to you, if he was Lord before she existed???????

Lord is used anywhere, without difference to the Pre-existence while God existed before anything else.

Try again, in English? What does Lord mean in reference to Jesus? What did Elisabeth mean by "Lord" in reference to the babe in Mary's womb?

Lord doesn't mean necessarily Creator

Did Jesus exist as Lord before Mary existed? Yes. Did the meaning of Lord change for Jesus when he was born? No. Is Mary the mother of my Lord? Yes.