Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

[AustinC]

ordain

(of God or someone in authority) to order something to happen

If God ORDERS it, then He CAUSES it. If I ORDER a person to be murdered, it is as good as I DOING it myself.

Don't try to explain that ORDAIN does not make God the author of evil and sin, because it DOES! And this is BLASPHEMY.

Nope
Humans are, by nature, sinful beings. When Adam and Eve were about to sin, God made the decision to allow it to happen. His order was to allow evil to take root in Adam and Eve. It was not an order to cause it. Sin was already lurking. God ordered the allowance of sin to attack and defeat Adam and Eve.

This whole notion of God causing, when He ordains is just your own foolishness and ignorance speaking.

But, who am I to keep you from stomping around and pouting. Have at it if you must.

 

[agedman]

Nope
Humans are, by nature, sinful beings. When Adam and Eve were about to sin, God made the decision to allow it to happen. His order was to allow evil to take root in Adam and Eve. It was not an order to cause it. Sin was already lurking. God ordered the allowance of sin to attack and defeat Adam and Eve.

This whole notion of God causing, when He ordains is just your own foolishness and ignorance speaking.

But, who am I to keep you from stomping around and pouting. Have at it if you must.

"Sin was already lurking. God ordered the allowance of sin to attack and defeat Adam and Eve."

This is EXACTLY right!

 

[Iconoclast]

then He IS the author of sin. no point in trying to use fancy words to show otherwise, because it does not work!

EVERYTHING is either EVERYTHING, which includes SIN, or it is not!

Ordains is the same as CAUSE.

You're putting your ignorance on display

 

[Iconoclast]

very simply put, there is NOTHING in Isaiah 10 that supports the false teaching that God orders everything that takes places in this world. You would like it to say that, but it does not!

I knew you didn't understand the passage I knew you were miles away from the truth of it and you're insincere once again you just want to blame God for man's sin

 

[DaveXR650]

, fix (as establish and not the Texan "fix" which means that one is "about to"),

I'm just glad I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that.

 

[DaveXR650]

ordain

(of God or someone in authority) to order something to happen

If God ORDERS it, then He CAUSES it. If I ORDER a person to be murdered, it is as good as I DOING it myself.

Don't try to explain that ORDAIN does not make God the author of evil and sin, because it DOES! And this is BLASPHEMY.

What we don't know in each case like the above, or like the case of Adam is what God's primary intent or will was for the situation. Like I said earlier, we all have to deal with the fact that if God is all knowing and all powerful then he could have prevented Adam from sinning. To me it all comes down to what did God primarily want to happen.

If for example in the case of Adam, if God's PRIMARY purpose was indeed that Adam sin then SBG might be right. You get into wild speculation over what God really wanted and what Adam's level of blame should be. Some of the Reformers said God has two wills, his permissive will and his sovereign will. In other words God truly desired that Adam not sin. After all he told him not to. But, God, in his wisdom did put the tree in the midst of the garden and he did truly give Adam the ability to move anywhere he wanted to in the garden without supervision and did give Adam free choice to do what he wanted. And so Adam went against God and chose to sin but God being all knowing had a plan already in place for redemption of man and that plans implementation was also God's will. It's not as stupid as it sounds.

What SBG is saying is like what the General Baptists said in the early 1600's - that such determinism as the Calvinists were espousing did make God the author of sin. I have read Helwys and Grantham and what they say makes a lot of sense. But I have not seen the point that Edwards raised really refuted. Still, I have seen Calvinists make God's determination so meticulous that SBG's concerns should not be just blown off.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You're putting your ignorance on display

can you show from one authority on English language, that says ORDAIN does not mean to ORDER and CAUSE?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I knew you didn't understand the passage I knew you were miles away from the truth of it and you're insincere once again you just want to blame God for man's sin

man, you can be a complete fool sometimes! There is NOTHING about me being insincere when I don't agree with your warped, reformed theology on God "ordaining all things that came to pass". It is NOT in the Bible, and you try to FORCE Scripture to agree with your own thinking! My blame is with so called "refomed theology", and NEVER with God!

 

[SavedByGrace]

What we don't know in each case like the above, or like the case of Adam is what God's primary intent or will was for the situation. Like I said earlier, we all have to deal with the fact that if God is all knowing and all powerful then he could have prevented Adam from sinning. To me it all comes down to what did God primarily want to happen.

If for example in the case of Adam, if God's PRIMARY purpose was indeed that Adam sin then SBG might be right. You get into wild speculation over what God really wanted and what Adam's level of blame should be. Some of the Reformers said God has two wills, his permissive will and his sovereign will. In other words God truly desired that Adam not sin. After all he told him not to. But, God, in his wisdom did put the tree in the midst of the garden and he did truly give Adam the ability to move anywhere he wanted to in the garden without supervision and did give Adam free choice to do what he wanted. And so Adam went against God and chose to sin but God being all knowing had a plan already in place for redemption of man and that plans implementation was also God's will. It's not as stupid as it sounds.

What SBG is saying is like what the General Baptists said in the early 1600's - that such determinism as the Calvinists were espousing did make God the author of sin. I have read Helwys and Grantham and what they say makes a lot of sense. But I have not seen the point that Edwards raised really refuted. Still, I have seen Calvinists make God's determination so meticulous that SBG's concerns should not be just blown off.

God ALLOWS many things in this world, even though He can PREVENT them, as He is Almighty, but, in His Infinite Wisdom, and not revealed to us humans, He does not act as we think that He should, or like Him to. ALLOWING is NOT the same as ORDAINING, even though there are some on here who do not undersatnd the English language!

 

[SavedByGrace]

"Sin was already lurking. God ordered the allowance of sin to attack and defeat Adam and Eve."

This is EXACTLY right!

this is such RUBBISH! I really cannot understand how the "reformed" can say such things???

God DOES NOT "ORDER" sin in ANY WAY! His is HOLY in His Nature

 

[agedman]

this is such RUBBISH! I really cannot understand how the "reformed" can say such things???

God DOES NOT "ORDER" sin in ANY WAY! His is HOLY in His Nature

I don’t think i said He “order(ed) sin.”

I believe I said He allowed for sin to happen.

Do you remember the illustration I gave of the ranch and cattle?

Was not the garden of Eden such a place, and did not the two have complete freedom to eat where, what and when they wanted?

Why Gd did it the way He did is not given for us to know, but He did.

The reformed do not present that human will cannot choose to do good and right, but that without the direct intervention of God the heathen have no other ability but to choose what appeals to the corrupt nature.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I don’t think i said He “order(ed) sin.”

I believe I said He allowed for sin to happen.

Do you remember the illustration I gave of the ranch and cattle?

Was not the garden of Eden such a place, and did not the two have complete freedom to eat where, what and when they wanted?

Why Gd did it the way He did is not given for us to know, but He did.

The reformed do not present that human will cannot choose to do good and right, but that without the direct intervention of God the heathen have no other ability but to choose what appeals to the corrupt nature.

this is your post in #102

"Sin was already lurking. God ordered the allowance of sin to attack and defeat Adam and Eve."

This is EXACTLY right!

Looks like you are quoting someone, and then agreeing. "God ordered the allowance of sin". There is no "ordering" that God did in any way, for sin. It is IMPOSSIBLE!

 

[SavedByGrace]

For those who cannot understand the langaue that the English gave the world. This is what the Oxford English Dictionary says on the term ORDAIN. Which of these definitions can be used for God ORDAINING sin?


I.I To put in order, arrange, make ready, prepare.

†1.I.1 trans. To arrange in rows or ranks, or other regular order; esp. to draw up in order of battle; to set in array; to array, marshal, order. Obs.

†2.I.2 To set in proper order or position; to arrange; to keep in due order; to regulate, govern, direct, manage, conduct. Obs.

†3.I.3 To settle the order or course of; to arrange.

4.I.4 To set up (something) to continue in a certain order; to establish or found by ordinance; to institute. arch.

†5.I.5 To plan, devise, contrive. Obs. a.I.5.a a material structure.

b.I.5.b something immaterial or abstract.

†6.I.6 To put in order (for a purpose); to prepare, make ready, equip; to furnish, provide. Obs.

†b.I.6.b To fit out, equip, or furnish (a person, etc.) with (in, of) something. Obs.

†7.I.7 To put into a particular mental condition or disposition, esp. into a right or fitting frame of mind; to dispose (aright). Obs.

†8.I.8 refl. To prepare oneself, make ready; to set or apply oneself (to do something). Obs.

†9.I.9 intr. To make preparation, prepare, arrange.

II.II To appoint, decree, destine, order.

†10.II.10 trans. To appoint (a person, etc.) to a charge, duty, or office. (With the official name or position as simple object or complement.) Obs.

†b.II.10.b Const. to do something; to (on, upon) some office, etc. Obs.

†12.II.12 To appoint or assign (to or for a special purpose, etc.). Obs.

†b.II.12.b To assign (to any one) as a share, portion, or allowance; to allot. Obs.

13.II.13 Of the Deity, fate, or supernatural power: To appoint as part of the order of the universe or of nature; to decree, predestine, destine.

†c.II.13.c To destine to a lot or fate. Obs.

14.II.14 To appoint authoritatively as a thing to be observed; to decree, to enact.

†c.II.14.c To determine, settle, resolve. Obs.

d.II.14.d absol. or intr. To appoint, direct, command.

†15.II.15 To order, command, bid (a person to do something, or that a thing be done); = order v. 7. Obs. or arch.

†16.II.16 To order (a thing) to be made or furnished; = order v. 8. Obs.

Hence ordained (-ˈeɪnd) ppl. a. (esp. in sense 11).

 

[DaveXR650]

God ALLOWS many things in this world, even though He can PREVENT them, as He is Almighty, but, in His Infinite Wisdom, and not revealed to us humans, He does not act as we think that He should, or like Him to. ALLOWING is NOT the same as ORDAINING, even though there are some on here who do not undersatnd the English language!

I agree with what you say there. Except that in those definitions of ordain that you posted I think that several of those do fit what we are talking about - that God has an overall ordained plan of how he is going to run things and so, even with all these actors acting on their free will you still see his overall sovereign will be done. And all the while these participants may be acting against God's specific commands.

I notice that in the case of Joseph's brothers there is no evidence that God in any way made or encouraged them to do what they did. They meant it for evil and God turned it around for good without God actually helping them throw him in the pit. I said before that I have read some Calvinist's, including Piper, whose explanation of God's ordaining actions DO go beyond what I think is the correct interpretation of this.

But once again, when you are talking about an all powerful being, allowing does have a component of ordaining in it and this has not been refuted. The other thing you have to keep in mind is that there is plenty of scripture indeed, as the other guys have posted that show from the Bible, without explanation or apology, that we are at God's disposal. If it bothers you then too bad. When I find it bothering me I remember the cross and the plan of salvation and then I usually stop questioning God. Theology is fine for studying about God. We are on dangerous ground when we move to questioning his motives. That's for me too, not just one camp.

 

[AustinC]

Allowing is also ordaining.
When Satan comes before God and asks to do damage to Job, God, as Sovereign King, gives him the allowance to do so. This is an order of allowance. It is, however, not a causation by God in the sense that God did not cause evil. God did allow evil in Job's life.
There were three responses by humans in this event.
1) Curse God and die
2) Praise God with both the good and the evil.
3) Look for what Job had done to cause God's wrath to fall.

Your rejection of the full Sovereignty of God is noted.

 

[agedman]

this is your post in #102

"Sin was already lurking. God ordered the allowance of sin to attack and defeat Adam and Eve."

This is EXACTLY right!

Looks like you are quoting someone, and then agreeing. "God ordered the allowance of sin". There is no "ordering" that God did in any way, for sin. It is IMPOSSIBLE!

Did or did not God allow for the possibility that Adam and/or Eve to take of the trees?

"All things were made by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made" Therefore, God ordered the trees to be in the garden.

Did He order Adam to sin? No.

Adam was like all who are capable of making rational choices concerning good. NOT perfect, but good.

Therefore, Adam chose that which was good - Eve rather then God - perfect. That rebellion that was first found in the Lucifer now has invested itself into every human.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Did or did not God allow for the possibility that Adam and/or Eve to take of the trees?

"All things were made by Him and without Him nothing was made that was made" Therefore, God ordered the trees to be in the garden.

Did He order Adam to sin? No.

Adam was like all who are capable of making rational choices concerning good. NOT perfect, but good.

Therefore, Adam chose that which was good - Eve rather then God - perfect. That rebellion that was first found in the Lucifer now has invested itself into every human.

this is NOT Biblical, "God ordered the allowance of sin"

God ALLOWED but did not ORDER

 

[AustinC]

this is NOT Biblical, "God ordered the allowance of sin"

God ALLOWED but did not ORDER

This is where you are getting tripped up. When God says it is allowed, it is his ordered decree. Thus, it is ordained.

 

[agedman]

this is NOT Biblical, "God ordered the allowance of sin"

God ALLOWED but did not ORDER

Perhaps you misread.

I agree that God allowed, by ordering the allowance of sin. The same as God allowed Job to be attacked, yet stated the parameters of which was and was not allowed.

There is never a time when God does not structure and establish boundaries. Such is seen at the separation of sea and land. A boundary established.

The boundary was established by the placement of a Garden.

The boundary was established by those saved in the ark.

And so forth.

The ordaining of boundaries is all part of the attributes of God. He is the God of form and not chaos.

He established in a manner of speaking, "This far and no further." Tower of Babel, Egypt at the Red Sea, Mt. Sinai, ...

The same in the Garden. He allows humans to attempt to cross boarders, but the results is death and afterward the judgement.

 

[AustinC]

Perhaps you misread.

I agree that God allowed, by ordering the allowance of sin. The same as God allowed Job to be attacked, yet stated the parameters of which was and was not allowed.

There is never a time when God does not structure and establish boundaries. Such is seen at the separation of sea and land. A boundary established.

The boundary was established by the placement of a Garden.

The boundary was established by those saved in the ark.

And so forth.

The ordaining of boundaries is all part of the attributes of God. He is the God of form and not chaos.

He established in a manner of speaking, "This far and no further." Tower of Babel, Egypt at the Red Sea, Mt. Sinai, ...

The same in the Garden. He allows humans to attempt to cross boarders, but the results is death and afterward the judgement.

We see God's ordained disallowance when we see Balaam attempt to curse Israel. God will not allow Balaam to do anything that goes contrary to God's will.