• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Does God Ordain Everything That Takes Place?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DaveXR650 said:
I don't think Reformed theology has a perfect answer to this but neither does any other system. I have to admit that to truly say that God ordains every single molecule in the universe in the sense that ordain means he actively decrees it to be then I don't see how you can avoid making God the author of evil.

But if you are not Reformed but still believe that God is all powerful and can see the future you are in about the same boat. If you're sitting at the table and a child rolls a marble and it goes toward the edge, and you can stop it or let it go, and you let it go then you are responsible if the marble goes off the table whether you started it rolling or not.

We quickly get into impossible areas with this kind of conjecture. Did God create Adam and decree that he fall so that it was ordained in such a way that there is no other possibility than for Adam to fall? The Reformed answer is usually yes it had to be but Adam really could have chosen not to sin. This is not a good argument. But the non Reformed alternative that God foresaw this but chose not to do anything about it still makes God responsible by any standard we use as humans. I don't think there is an answer.

My guess (and it's a total guess) would be to say that God in his infinite wisdom, has a will that he wants to accomplish. He has created men with a certain amount of freedom which he also over rides as he sees fit but often allows. We know the Reformed position on total depravity is that men while bad in every area are not as bad as they could be - but that means that they have a degree of freedom to be much worse than others due to their own freedom to do so. Maybe God in his wisdom uses that to cause evil men to accomplish his overall will according to his wisdom - yet without making them do anything more evil than they want to do or would have done on their own.

That's just my opinion and it won't bother me if someone thinks it's baloney because I truly don't think there is an answer.
Click to expand...
You do not understand it properly yet.
You need to let scripture inform your understanding.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
Then you cannot excape the fact that God is also the author of sin. If you say what you do, and deny this, then show how this can be possible?
Click to expand...
God can never be the author of sin.Sin exists under God's control.
The wicked acts of those who crucified Jesus were ordained to happen.Acts2:23 Acts4:25-28
 
agedman

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Iconoclast said:
You do not understand it properly yet.
You need to let scripture inform your understanding.
Click to expand...

I totally agree.

Yet, I conclude that this is rarely the criterion and standard held by most who read (few read with the intent of understanding, imo).
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
Iconoclast said:
You do not understand it properly yet.
You need to let scripture inform your understanding.
Click to expand...
I'm OK with letting scripture stand by itself in this area. God does his will and every attempt by men to question that is rebuffed, whether it's Jacob and Esau or questioning why a man was born blind, or the conversations that take place in Job. God is acting on a level that is beyond us. If you go beyond that all the answers are unsatisfactory.

Iconoclast said:
Reformed theology does have the answers.
Click to expand...

Reformed theology, when it tries to answer these questions with philosophical or rational answers fails too. The one thing Reformed theology does do that the others don't do is just admit that God is God and what he does is the right thing. But when you try to give an answer beyond that you fail.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
DaveXR650 said:
I'm OK with letting scripture stand by itself in this area. God does his will and every attempt by men to question that is rebuffed, whether it's Jacob and Esau or questioning why a man was born blind, or the conversations that take place in Job. God is acting on a level that is beyond us. If you go beyond that all the answers are unsatisfactory.



Reformed theology, when it tries to answer these questions with philosophical or rational answers fails too. The one thing Reformed theology does do that the others don't do is just admit that God is God and what he does is the right thing. But when you try to give an answer beyond that you fail.
Click to expand...
They answer with scripture....not philosophy.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
I fully believe what the Bible and not man-made, especially "Reformed" theology teaches.

It is very clear from the Bible that God is Almighty, and All-knowing, and Perfectly Holy. He cannot and does not "order" anyone to sin, as it is completely against His Perfect Holy Nature. He knows everything from eternity to eternity, but this does not mean that He "orders" everything that comes to pass.

Your comments on what I am supposed to believe, are not only completely wrong, but a cheap shot!
Click to expand...
God doesn't have to order man to sin. They do it naturally...and God allows it to happen, or he doesn't allow it to happen. This is what it means when God ordains what will happen, both good and bad.
But, you don't know your Bible so you don't know that God has revealed this truth to you. And since you have me on ignore, you will remain in ignorance.
 
DaveXR650

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
When you get into the idea of the absolute sovereignty of God over every molecule in the universe, and what the precise meaning of "ordain" is you are beyond scripture and into metaphysics. Reformed theology is vast in itself and in areas like this it seems to show development over time as well as diversity of opinion. We have all seen the illustrations of how can you explain a disaster or a heinous crime against a child. Sometimes guys like John Piper for instance get into trouble trying to explain things - which it really isn't their responsibility to explain anyway. Not that any other explanations of why things happen are any better. They aren't.

I predict that within a few posts someone will be quoting Calvinist theologians who in trying to explain these things will make it look like God is the author of sin. At some point we have to admit that our explanations are incomplete at best.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
DaveXR650 said:
When you get into the idea of the absolute sovereignty of God over every molecule in the universe, and what the precise meaning of "ordain" is you are beyond scripture and into metaphysics. Reformed theology is vast in itself and in areas like this it seems to show development over time as well as diversity of opinion. We have all seen the illustrations of how can you explain a disaster or a heinous crime against a child. Sometimes guys like John Piper for instance get into trouble trying to explain things - which it really isn't their responsibility to explain anyway. Not that any other explanations of why things happen are any better. They aren't.

I predict that within a few posts someone will be quoting Calvinist theologians who in trying to explain these things will make it look like God is the author of sin. At some point we have to admit that our explanations are incomplete at best.
Click to expand...
You sound like a Lutheran. Mystery...
 
C

Conan

Well-Known Member
God did not cause putin to invade. The billionaires who run the world kept pushing nato countries on the border of Russia for no good reason. Our cia their putin = 2 bad character's. People die, billionaires make billions in profits on war. The West's motives. Make billion's.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Conan said:
God did not cause putin to invade. The billionaires who run the world kept pushing nato countries on the border of Russia for no good reason. Our cia their putin = 2 bad character's. People die, billionaires make billions in profits on war. The West's motives. Make billion's.
Click to expand...
How do we know this?
God caused the Babylonians to invade Judah. (Read Habakkuk)
We know for certain that God allowed Putin to invade. We know that because God has allowed the invasion, it is within his will for this world. We know that God is perfectly orchestrating his plan.
Look at the story of Joseph and the subsequent experience of Israel in Eygypt. 400 years of life in Egypt with hundreds of years in slavery and it was all God's will.
God called Moses and then purposely hardened Pharaoh's heart. In that instance God caused Pharaoh to remain in rebellion yet held him accountable for his hard heart.

So, you have no idea what God caused to happen, nor do you know why.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Iconoclast said:
God can never be the author of sin.Sin exists under God's control.
The wicked acts of those who crucified Jesus were ordained to happen.Acts2:23 Acts4:25-28
Click to expand...

I fully agree that God can NEVER be, or even, be seen to be, the author of sin. This is an IMPOSSIBILITY.

However, as in the cases of Ahab, and the lying spirit, and the murder of Jesus Christ, God "uses" evil for His Purposes, but never "ordains" it. God "used" Judas in the Death of Jesus Christ, whom He forknew would take the actions that he did. He did not "ordain" what Judas did, which was in his own will to do so.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Conan said:
God did not cause putin to invade. The billionaires who run the world kept pushing nato countries on the border of Russia for no good reason. Our cia their putin = 2 bad character's. People die, billionaires make billions in profits on war. The West's motives. Make billion's.
Click to expand...

Yes, God does not "ordain" ANY sin, even though some of the "Reformed Confessions" says this. It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to do anything this.
 
I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
I fully agree that God can NEVER be, or even, be seen to be, the author of sin. This is an IMPOSSIBILITY.

However, as in the cases of Ahab, and the lying spirit, and the murder of Jesus Christ, God "uses" evil for His Purposes, but never "ordains" it. God "used" Judas in the Death of Jesus Christ, whom He forknew would take the actions that he did. He did not "ordain" what Judas did, which was in his own will to do so.
Click to expand...
if something is not ordained to happen...it does not happen.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top