Does God Repent?

[rlvaughn]

It seems to me most of these situations are basic "if you will, then I will" conditional phrases. I don't think you've made the case of why this would violate God's omniscience. When you take Scripture as it stands, you must take all of it. We can find verses and sections of Scripture that appear to teach falling from grace, baptismal salvation, salvation by works, etc., etc., but we must also compare Scripture with Scripture to get the whole picture. IMO, that is what you are failing to do by isolating the verses on God's repentance.

And for the record, Bro. Mark, I learned my belief in God's omniscience from Sunday School to adulthood in a church that was and is in affiliation with the same association with which you are affiliated. You may believe I am wrong, and that is OK. But there was not and is not now a Calvinist among that body of baptized believers. This is not an issue of Calvinism vs. something else, as far as I have ever known.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

The Lord told Jeremiah,

"Thus saith the Lord; Stand in the court of the Lord's house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the Lord's house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word. If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doing" (Jeremiah 26:2-3).

Here we have an unequivocal statement that the Lord did "purpose" to bring judgment on the people of Israel but "if so be" that they would repent then He would be liberated to "repent" Himself of the judgement which He did "purpose" to bring on them.

I accept these words of the Lord as a clear and true revelation of His character.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[rlvaughn]

I accept those words and every Bible passage dealing with the nature of God as a clear and true revelation of His character, such as "he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth." I may be mistaken on how each precept fits together, but I can only say what I best understand as of today. Omniscience is a clear principle to me.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Brother Vaughn,

Indeed, "what his soul desireth, even that he doeth." And, according to His words in Jeremiah, His soul desires to turn away His intended wrath every time man repents.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Paul of Eugene]

Any time we speak of God we are faced with the fact that there are at least two ways of looking at Him. There is looking at Him from the temporal point of view, from our point of view embedded in time and space. Then there is looking at Him from the eternal point of view, which is the point of view necessary to consider his absolute foreknowledge, omnipotence, omniscience, and so forth. Each of these look at Him doing the same thing and see it differently. Thus, we speak of the Spirit of God descending on Christ, and that is from a temporal point of view. We speak of God always being everywhere at once and that seems to contradict the idea that God descended on Christ, but its really just a shift in the point of view. So it is with repenting. The description of God repenting is from the temporal point of view. The eternal point of view would not describe the same thing in the same way. But we are not really equipped to deal with the eternal point of view, and so God communicates certain truths to us from the temporal point of view.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Paul of Eugene,

Your words may satisfy your mind in the matter, but I'm still faced with the cold hard fact that Exodus 32:14 says,

"The Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

So please explain to me how God "thought to do" something that He never really intended to do?

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Paul of Eugene,

Your words may satisfy your mind in the matter, but I'm still faced with the cold hard fact that Exodus 32:14 says,

"The Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

So please explain to me how God "thought to do" something that He never really intended to do?

Mark Osgatharp

Mark, I am not Paul (either one) but I will try and answer it by paraphrasing.

Moses prayed and the Lord turned from the harsh treatment he was going to do to His people had Moses not prayed. He was planning, thinking, and heading toward doing this evil but, remember that the effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Imagine, the Almighty God of all the Earth can be swayed from His intentions by creatures as sorry as we are. God, of course, wasn't surprised by Moses' prayer, nor did He rethink things after considering what Moses said. He did however, teach us that OUR prayer is important to HIM.

 

[Don]

Don't know if this has been said yet; I'm too lazy to read through all the posts.

There's a difference between "changing" and "changing your mind."

 

[Helen]

Repenting means you are turning away from something that is wrong to something that is right.

Does God repent?

Does God ever do wrong or even consider doing it?

Not the God I know.

James 2:13 might have something to do with this. On the other hand, so might something mentioned here in the study on Numbers 14:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=43;t=000143

In verse 12, the Lord tells Moses He will strike the people down with a plague and raise up a new race from Moses' line.

Why would the Lord say this? He was not going to do it. If He was going to do it, He would do it. Period.

So why did He say this?

Look back at verse 5: Moses and Aaron fell facedown in front of the whole Israelite assembly gathered there. This was when Joshua and Caleb had started to speak. Moses had not answered the people. Neither had Aaron. If we look back at the past we can see Moses' uncertainty and his own fears and disgust with this people several times. But now they were not going to be able to enter the promised land and Moses was going to have to be strengthened for 40 more years of them!

And so the Lord told Moses He would destroy the people. And Moses immediately objected. But it is not the objection per se which is the most important thing here, but the reason why Moses objected. We can see it in verses 15-16:

If you put these people to death all at one time, the nations who have heard this report about you will say, 'The Lord was not able to bring these people into the land he promised them on oath; so he slaughtered them in the desert.'

Moses is standing up for the strength and character of the Lord TO the Lord! But the Lord already knows all this! So what is happening here?

The Lord has put Moses in a position where Moses Himself is enunciating the purpose of the Lord in raising up the Israelite people and then calling them out of Egypt: to show Himself in character and power to the world. Now that Moses has said it for himself, he is more in line with God's purpose for them and will be more capable of leading them during the long sojourn ahead.

In short, the question and answer were for Moses' sake. Moses did not change God's mind. God used the situation to prepare Moses' mind.

 

[rlvaughn]

That GOD is omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscience (all-knowing), and omnipresent (everywhere present), I felt was standard Baptist orthodoxy, whether one ranged from "Calvinist" to "Arminian." It would be interesting for those who do not so believe to enlighten us. Here are some related verses.

Job 23:10 - But he knoweth the way that I take...
Psalm 135:6 - Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Psalm 147:5 - Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Proverbs 15:3 - The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
Isaiah 40:13,14 - Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
Isaiah 42:9 - Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
Isaiah 46:10 - Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Daniel 4:35 - And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Acts 15:18 - Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Romans 9:20 - Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hebrews 4:13 - Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
I John 3:20 - For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

If we accept these premises - omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence - then we must somehow understand the instances of God repenting within the context of those truths. It seems that the whole scope of options are (1) to understand that repentance in reference to God takes on a different kind of meaning than when in reference to man, (2) that we must modify our understanding of omniscience and foreknowledge, (3) that we just accept it as a paradox that we cannot understand, or (4) that we just reject the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible. Maybe there are other options, but those are all of which I can think. I accept the first option. The third one has definite appeal as well.

 

[Jim1999]

The actions of God as they relate to humankind are always expressed in human terms. It is not so much that God does the about turn (repenting) but that man perceives that God changed His direction. It is so written in the word.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[KenH]

1 Samuel 15:29(NASB)
29 “Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

That pretty much settles the issue for me. If God has to truly change His plans, then He is not omniscience. If He is not omniscience, then He is not God.

Any perceived changes are merely from a limited human perspective, not from God's perspective or will or purpose.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Ken H:
1 Samuel 15:29(NASB)
29 “Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

That pretty much settles the issue for me. If God has to truly change His plans, then He is not omniscience. If He is not omniscience, then He is not God.

Any perceived changes are merely from a limited human perspective, not from God's perspective or will or purpose.

Ken,

This is a classic case of taking a Scripture out of context. The passage does not say that God never repents. It says:

1. That God is under no obligation to repent.

2. That God would not repent about His decision to remove Saul from the throne of Israel.

I'm glad you introduced this passage though, because it actually proves the opposite of what you say it proves. Earlier in the same passage the Lord said to Samuel:

"It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king."

This is the same "repent" that the Lord said He would not do in verse 29; and yet in this instance He did indeed repent. Therefore "repent" does, indeed, mean repent and when you put it all together you conclude that:

1. God is not obligated to repent.

2. God will not repent when He declares that He will not repent.

3. Notwithstanding, God reserves the right to repent about things which He has not declared He wouldn't repent.

I'll let all you fellows (and ladies) decide how this fits into your conception of God's foreknowledge. As for me, I will just accept God at His word that sometimes, in response to man's sin and obedience, He changes His previously intended course of action. I don't know how else the statement in Exodus can be interpreted:

"And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how God can have a "thought to do" something that He knew all along He would not do.



Mark Osgatharp

 

[Helen]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how God can have a "thought to do" something that He knew all along He would not do.


Did you read my post?

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
The actions of God as they relate to humankind are always expressed in human terms. It is not so much that God does the about turn (repenting) but that man perceives that God changed His direction. It is so written in the word.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim,

If we accept your assertion that this is just a human way of understanding God, we must still believe that this is the way God wanted us to understand Him. Notice that these are not man's description of God, but God's description of Himself:

"If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them."

"It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king."

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by Helen:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how God can have a "thought to do" something that He knew all along He would not do.


Did you read my post?

Helen,

You still have not addressed the fact that the text says the Lord "thought to do" those things to His people.

It seems to me that to maintain your position you must assert that "thought to do" means something other than "thought to do" - because you don't believe God did think to do those things. Your explanation of the situation only has God suggesting to Moses that He would do them, not actually thinking to do them.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Helen]

Mark, are you a dad? I'm a mom of many years' standing. There were a number of times when the kids were little when I would 'threaten' something, knowing it would never do it, but wanting the kids to think about it if I were to do it.

"OK, you kids are refusing to turn out the light and our electric bill is up again. I'm thinking about cutting out all allowances so I can pay for this thing! You kids did it -- don't you think it is right that you should have to pay for it?"

I also referenced James 2:13 -- did you look it up?

God might think to do something out of justice, but refrain out of mercy. The thoughts are opposed to each other, but neither is wrong; nor does it involve Him changing His mind, as He knew what He would do all along. He is both just and merciful -- and these opposites can only be reconciled in Jesus Christ. But they are opposites and it is very possible for God to think about doing something which would fulfill justice while at the same time choosing to do that which is merciful.

So if some of you folks want to insist on the idea of "God repenting" in the way we understand it today, maybe just consider it turning from one side of His character to another -- from justice to mercy.

But since He knew all along what He would do....

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how God can have a "thought to do" something that He knew all along He would not do.


Did you read my post?

Helen,

You still have not addressed the fact that the text says the Lord "thought to do" those things to His people.

It seems to me that to maintain your position you must assert that "thought to do" means something other than "thought to do" - because you don't believe God did think to do those things. Your explanation of the situation only has God suggesting to Moses that He would do them, not actually thinking to do them.

Mark Osgatharp </font>[/QUOTE]"Thought to do" - this is what God WILL do as the situation is NOW. It is even stronger than just "thinking" about doing it. He IS going to do this. What would you have Him tell Moses? "I am NOT going to exercise my wrath on you because of the prayer you will give when I merely threaten with an empty threat because I really know that I won't do it." It wasn't an empty threat. The fact that God knows the outcome does not mean that the decisions needed to get there don't have to be made.
The threat was effective because Moses KNEW that God meant it (because God did mean it). You seem to be having difficulty with the idea that something God "thought to do", he didn't do. Moses and you may see it as God changing His mind. God may see it as doing EXACTLY what he thought, the WHOLE thought. God repented of the evil which He "Thought to do" IF the humans responded in unbelief. The fact that He already knew the outcome does not change the thought. I know I am editorializing some but that is the point of these discussions

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Helen,

You said,

"There were a number of times when the kids were little when I would 'threaten' something, knowing it would never do it, but wanting the kids to think about it if I were to do it."

So have I, but that is not what the text says the Lord did. It says that He had "thought to do unto his people" but didn't do it.

You also said,

"So if some of you folks want to insist on the idea of 'God repenting' in the way we understand it today, maybe just consider it turning from one side of His character to another -- from justice to mercy."

The only thing on which I "want to insist" is in understanding and believe what the Bible says the Lord did. The Bible says God repented. All your attempts to redefine the word fail when we see that the same "repent" is used when it says the Lord did repent as in the cases where He declared He would not repent.

I have never defined "repent" to mean that God was sorry, that He had made a mistake, nor that (as you defined the term) He turned from something wicked to something good. To "repent" simply means to have a change of mind which is exactly what the Exodus passage says God did.

I totally agree with your statement that God turned from His wrath to His mercy.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[KenH]

Mark,

A question. Are you advocating in any form, Open Theism?