Does God Save Children Apart From their Faith In Jesus?

[DHK]

I'll go ahead and answer: The Spirit bears witness with our spirits that we are the children of God, Rom. 8:16.

Only after a person actively puts their faith in Christ.

If life begins at conception, then the spirit is in that body from the beginning of that development. So tell me, oh wise and educated one, at what point is the spirit able to think? What is the magic number of cells before the spirit can be considered intelligent?

That doesn't matter. Post on the other thread. At what age does one become accountable? That is the better question. At what age is he able not only to "hear" but understand, comprehend the gospel message. That is the question that is more important. Not until he reaches that age is he responsible.

 

[DHK]

. . . how many posts have been made where one is agonizing over the eternal state of an embryo one may have spontaneously aborted, or a miscarriage in just the first few weeks of pregnancy? Those things usually happen in the toilet. Few if any have an emotional attachment to their children then.

But when it comes to one that perishes just a little before birth, or shortly thereafter—whoah, boy. You'd better look out.

Doesn't this suggest that the questions don't come from a concern for justice, but from a concern for self? One's own will, and one's own desires? All souls are mine, says the Lord. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.

It's easy to say that when we're talking about souls to which we don't have an emotional bond. It doesn't change its veracity when it's a soul to which we do.

Neither the time of death (near the beginning of conception nor close to the time of birth) nor the emotional attachment, matters. All that does matter here is "death" in and of itself. The soul dies. As you quoted, the soul belongs to the Lord. And I believe He will have mercy on them.

 

[Aaron]

Only after a person actively puts their faith in Christ.

So one begins in the flesh? You're so full of poop. Your assertions are wholly antiscriptural. Not UNscritpural—ANTIscriptural. No one begins in the flesh. No one is born of God by the will of the flesh.

That doesn't matter.

Au contraire. It's the crux. The Spirit does not interact with the carnal mind. It interacts with our spirits.

 

[preacher4truth]

Originally Posted by preacher4truth
Aren't you the one that teaches you have your own faith, that it is not a gift? If so, then that unborn baby has faith at some point.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Yep. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God, (it's not within you) and the context of Romans 10:17 is that this faith enables one to believe the truth, since this faith comes externally from the Word, not internally from you.

This is contrary to your theory that you already possess faith, akin to faith in sitting on a chair that it won't collapse.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Brother DHK, are you preaching that one must hear and understand the gospel, actively obey the gospel, and manifestly believe on Christ, in order to become a child of God?

I personally believe the great message of grace which is so firmly believed and preached by the Doctrines of Grace, declares that one may be a recipient of the mercy of God without hearing the report of it through the gospel and even without fully understanding what has taken place in the heart. If infants, if if the feeble minded, must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then how can there be any hope for them? But since salvation is by the sovereign grace of God through the work of His Son, we know that He will save His own regardless of their circumstances in life (Rom. 8 :34-39; Rom. 11 :28; II Tim. 2 :13, 16-19). That is what I firmly believe.:godisgood:

 

[Robert Snow]

Calling ones salvation into question is uncalled for and is against the BB rules. How you contiinue to do these things and call out others for very minor things is beyond me.

Wow! Talk about a hypocrisy!

Aaron just said this to DHK:

In Calvinism, infants can be saved. In yours, they can't, unless God provides some way other than the Door into the fold. And now you've preached another gospel.

Yet you somehow overlooked this when looking for infractions, how odd.

 

[Winman]

DHK said;

An infant is alive. He is not separated from God. He is not dead. He has not sinned (especially in the womb). There is nothing to separate him from God.

This is correct. Infants are not dead in sin because they have never sinned.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

This was said when Esau and Jacob were in their mother's womb. They were physically alive when this was said, but not yet born. The scriptures say they had done neither good or evil. They were not sinners.

Infants belong to God, they are not separated from him.

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

God says children are born "unto me". They are his, he owns them. And in verse 21 he calls them "my children".

Ezekiel absolutely refutes original sin. We see more in chapter 18.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

We are not born children of the devil as some teach. It is the soul that sins that "shall" die. This alone shows they were not born dead.

Further, chapter 18 shows that God does not impute the father's sin to his son.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Again, God says the soul that sins "shall" die. We know that Esau and Jacob were not spiritually dead in their mother's womb because the scriptures say they had done no evil. And we know from Eze 18:20 that children do not bear the iniquity of their father. The teaching that Adam's sin is imputed to us is FALSE.

 

[percho]

THink that IF we take into consideration the view of David and his infant son , and jesus regarding children having their Guardian Angels before God, have to say that there is "proof" that God has indeed made a provision to be able to save those who cannot meet the faith requirement!

I think God made a provision.

By Grace through the Faith.

 

[percho]

OK a 2 week old dies before being regenerated.....then what?

then what.....By Grace through the Faith.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

then what.....By Grace through the Faith.

you mean you want a 2 week old to give you a profession of Faith?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

This is correct. Infants are not dead in sin because they have never sinned.

So your telling us you dont believe in original sin!

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK, are you preaching that one must hear and understand the gospel, actively obey the gospel, and manifestly believe on Christ, in order to become a child of God?

I personally believe the great message of grace which is so firmly believed and preached by the Doctrines of Grace, declares that one may be a recipient of the mercy of God without hearing the report of it through the gospel and even without fully understanding what has taken place in the heart. If infants, if if the feeble minded, must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then how can there be any hope for them? But since salvation is by the sovereign grace of God through the work of His Son, we know that He will save His own regardless of their circumstances in life (Rom. 8 :34-39; Rom. 11 :28; II Tim. 2 :13, 16-19). That is what I firmly believe.:godisgood:

Amen.
Grace is God's unmerited favor.
Even if we suppose they didn't deserve it; (none of us do) by God's grace and God's mercy I believe He would grant them salvation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amen.
Grace is God's unmerited favor.
Even if we suppose they didn't deserve it; (none of us do) by God's grace and God's mercy I believe He would grant them salvation.

Thank you....its good to know somebody on here finally agrees with me.:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

So your telling us you dont believe in original sin!

You caught that did you? :tongue3:

I was taught original sin and believed it for years. But through the years as I read the scriptures I saw MANY verses that did not fit with original sin.

First, what do the scriptures say over and over? That we like sheep have gone ASTRAY.

What does gone astray mean? It means to leave home, or in the case of a sheep, to run away from the flock and get lost. But to go astray, you must originate in the flock. A wild sheep that has always lived in the wilderness and never belonged to any man's flock cannot be said to have gone astray. And yet, this is what many teach, that we are born separated from God. But what do the scriptures show?

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can you return to God if you were never with him? Words have meaning, return means to come back to the point you originated. You see this over and over in scripture.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

How many sheep did Jesus have at first? He had 100. The lost sheep had gone astray and gotten lost, but originally it was in his flock.

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

How many pieces of silver did this woman have at first, 9 or 10? She had 10. Originally the coin was in her possession, but it got lost. Then she searched and recovered it.

And even the prodigal son, what did Jesus say when he RETURNED home?

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Jesus knows correct doctrine. Twice he said this young man was alive AGAIN. How can you be alive again if you are born dead in sin as Calvinism teaches. YOU CAN'T.

I could probably list dozens of verses that show that man is not born dead in sin, but soon after birth goes astray in sin and spritually dies.

Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

God says all "souls" are mine. The soul that sinneth "shall" die. You cannot die unless you are first alive. We are not born dead in sin, we are born alive and belong to God. Only when we knowingly and willingly sin against God do we spiritually die. A little child cannot possibly understand right from wrong and is not held accountable. Your little one that passed away is with the Lord.

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

I showed this before, but read it carefully. When a child is born, it is born unto God. It is his, he owns it. He calls them "my children".

Read Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11, Ecc 7:29, Rom 7:9. Those who say there is not scripture supporting the age of accountability have not read their Bible.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

You can believe the word of God, or you can believe the words of Augustine and Calvin.

 

[DHK]

So one begins in the flesh? You're so full of poop. Your assertions are wholly antiscriptural. Not UNscritpural—ANTIscriptural. No one begins in the flesh. No one is born of God by the will of the flesh.

Thank you so much for your complimentary language. When the Lord looks down from heaven I am sure that he will congratulate you too.

Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. (Ephesians 4:29)

As to salvation, it must have slipped my mind, you are one of the many Calvinists on this board that no longer believes in sola fide. You have turned your back on what most Calvinists crow about "the great strides made in the Reformation." One of the greatest truths preached by Martin Luther is encapsulated in this verse:

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Romans 5:1)
and also here:

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (Romans 4:3)

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:4-5)

What? you say! His FAITH is counted for righteousness??
Yes, his faith!
Not his birth, but rather his faith.

Au contraire

. It's the crux. The Spirit does not interact with the carnal mind. It interacts with our spirits.

Perhaps if you studied your Bible more you would understand it better.

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:25)
--The battle is in the mind.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Pelagius argued many of those same points

 

[percho]

Brother DHK, are you preaching that one must hear and understand the gospel, actively obey the gospel, and manifestly believe on Christ, in order to become a child of God?

I personally believe the great message of grace which is so firmly believed and preached by the Doctrines of Grace, declares that one may be a recipient of the mercy of God without hearing the report of it through the gospel and even without fully understanding what has taken place in the heart. If infants, if if the feeble minded, must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then how can there be any hope for them? But since salvation is by the sovereign grace of God through the work of His Son, we know that He will save His own regardless of their circumstances in life (Rom. 8 :34-39; Rom. 11 :28; II Tim. 2 :13, 16-19). That is what I firmly believe.:godisgood:

I underlined and put in bold part of your post.

That is also firmly what I believe.-----Now follow me a little further. Please.

From a post I made and your question to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by percho View Post
then what.....By Grace through the Faith.
you mean you want a 2 week old to give you a profession of Faith?

No I do not, what I want is for all to understand that what you posted that I underlined and put in bold, this;
But since salvation is by the sovereign grace of God through the work of His Son, MEANS the exact same thing that is stated here.
From Eph. 2:8 by grace are ye saved through the faith; The being in the Greek.

Grace is the sovereign work of God in begetting in the virgin Mary and bringing to birth his only begotten Son Jesus to die for us. The work of his Son was his obedience of faith unto death even the death on the cross.

I do not expect that 2 week old to do a thing. It's salvation will come just as any other by the sovereign grace of God through the work of his Son.

In another thread I showed from Gal. 3 and Acts 2 that Jesus the Son received the promise of the Holy Spirit from God the Father by faith enabling him to give that same Holy Spirit to us that came by promise to Abraham and his one seed Jesus the Christ born of the flesh begotten of The Spirit God.

See Gal 3:22 Gal 3:14 which should end also as the faith. Gal 3:16 Acts 2:32,33.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I underlined and put in bold part of your post.

That is also firmly what I believe.-----Now follow me a little further. Please.

From a post I made and your question to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by percho View Post
then what.....By Grace through the Faith.
you mean you want a 2 week old to give you a profession of Faith?

No I do not, what I want is for all to understand that what you posted that I underlined and put in bold, this;
But since salvation is by the sovereign grace of God through the work of His Son, MEANS the exact same thing that is stated here.
From Eph. 2:8 by grace are ye saved through the faith; The being in the Greek.

Grace is the sovereign work of God in begetting in the virgin Mary and bringing to birth his only begotten Son Jesus to die for us. The work of his Son was his obedience of faith unto death even the death on the cross.

I do not expect that 2 week old to do a thing. It's salvation will come just as any other by the sovereign grace of God through the work of his Son.

In another thread I showed from Gal. 3 and Acts 2 that Jesus the Son received the promise of the Holy Spirit from God the Father by faith enabling him to give that same Holy Spirit to us that came by promise to Abraham and his one seed Jesus the Christ born of the flesh begotten of The Spirit God.

See Gal 3:22 Gal 3:14 which should end also as the faith. Gal 3:16 Acts 2:32,33.

Good! Glad we agree.:thumbs:

 

[JesusFan]

You caught that did you? :tongue3:

I was taught original sin and believed it for years. But through the years as I read the scriptures I saw MANY verses that did not fit with original sin.

First, what do the scriptures say over and over? That we like sheep have gone ASTRAY.

What does gone astray mean? It means to leave home, or in the case of a sheep, to run away from the flock and get lost. But to go astray, you must originate in the flock. A wild sheep that has always lived in the wilderness and never belonged to any man's flock cannot be said to have gone astray. And yet, this is what many teach, that we are born separated from God. But what do the scriptures show?

1 Pet 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

How can you return to God if you were never with him? Words have meaning, return means to come back to the point you originated. You see this over and over in scripture.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

How many sheep did Jesus have at first? He had 100. The lost sheep had gone astray and gotten lost, but originally it was in his flock.

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

How many pieces of silver did this woman have at first, 9 or 10? She had 10. Originally the coin was in her possession, but it got lost. Then she searched and recovered it.

And even the prodigal son, what did Jesus say when he RETURNED home?

Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Jesus knows correct doctrine. Twice he said this young man was alive AGAIN. How can you be alive again if you are born dead in sin as Calvinism teaches. YOU CAN'T.

I could probably list dozens of verses that show that man is not born dead in sin, but soon after birth goes astray in sin and spritually dies.

Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

God says all "souls" are mine. The soul that sinneth "shall" die. You cannot die unless you are first alive. We are not born dead in sin, we are born alive and belong to God. Only when we knowingly and willingly sin against God do we spiritually die. A little child cannot possibly understand right from wrong and is not held accountable. Your little one that passed away is with the Lord.

Eze 16:20 Moreover thou hast taken thy sons and thy daughters, whom thou hast borne unto me, and these hast thou sacrificed unto them to be devoured. Is this of thy whoredoms a small matter,
21 That thou hast slain my children, and delivered them to cause them to pass through the fire for them?

I showed this before, but read it carefully. When a child is born, it is born unto God. It is his, he owns it. He calls them "my children".

Read Deut 1:39, Isa 7:16, Jon 4:11, Ecc 7:29, Rom 7:9. Those who say there is not scripture supporting the age of accountability have not read their Bible.

Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

You can believe the word of God, or you can believe the words of Augustine and Calvin.

Actually, its SAME!

Apostle paul and augustine and Calvin ALL agreed on this doctrine!

 

[JesusFan]

Brother DHK, are you preaching that one must hear and understand the gospel, actively obey the gospel, and manifestly believe on Christ, in order to become a child of God?

I

IF one holds to that belief, than there is NO HOPE for those whose ability/means to place faith i Christ is JUST not there!

Children and mentally challenged to me differeent situation before God than adults who know there is a God and refuse to follow Him!
They are indeed guilty before the Lord, but why wouldn't God provide the means to save those through Cross who cannot even know there is a God?

We have to reason to this by taking into account verses concerning children, love of God, the Cross and His Grace etc...

basically, my belief is that God has 'somehow" made it right towards those who cannot meet the faith requirement, and that this would be to His glory!

personally believe the great message of grace which is so firmly believed and preached by the Doctrines of Grace, declares that one may be a recipient of the mercy of God without hearing the report of it through the gospel and even without fully understanding what has taken place in the heart. If infants, if if the feeble minded, must hear the gospel preached by man and actively repent and believe the truth, then how can there be any hope for them? But since salvation is by the sovereign grace of God through the work of His Son, we know that He will save His own regardless of their circumstances in life (Rom. 8 :34-39; Rom. 11 :28; II Tim. 2 :13, 16-19). That is what I firmly believe.:godisgood:

We have to agree with father Abraham, and entrust the Judge of while earth to do what is right, and that the secret things God has reserved unto Himself!

There Are NO clear verses to support either side of this question, but believe there are good indirect refernces to this, and that the very nature of God would seem to support idea that Gos will indeed be able to save those in the "special case" mentioned here on the OP!