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Does God send His children to hell?

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi Bob,

I must give you an A for trying anyhow.
thumbs.gif


Maybe when you chalk up another 10,000 post devoted to Matt 18 it will somehow say something about eternal life being revoked!
Hey just wait for a few hundred more new and improved bible versions to come out and I bet it will be there! You should think about writing one, then you could write it out just as you say it is and no one will ever need to question the parable's purpose or intent again.


You talk about "glossing over". That's a good one. I want to know how one becomes "unborn". Unless you can go to the lake as a child of God taking the living water with you.

Does God cast His children into the lake of fire? ( I re-worded it so as to line it up with Rev 20:15) We all know that behind it all one chooses the lake by rejection of the Gift. No need to get into systematics.

God Bless!
 

ascund

New Member
Greetings

I gave my challenge in another thread. I'll repeat it here.

I am so sure that neither BobRyan nor 1jim know what God's New Contractual clauses are that I will make a public apology if either one of them can give the answer.

How can one do theology without understanding the basics? BTW, this great comment originated with steaver.

I'm waiting for you two.
Nah nah nah boo boo.
Bet ya can't find it! :D

Lloyd

Limitations:
1. Offer valid only through noon Saturday Sep 17.
2. Only one attempt per person allowed.
3. Must be able to provide all clauses.
 

ascund

New Member
Greetings

Matt 18: 21-35 (Luke 19:11-27)

The parable shows the initial forgiveness that every believer has “in Christ.” The master of the parable forgave the servant a multi-billion debt. This illustrates the believer’s initial and positional forgiveness. The Bible is clear that at the moment we believe in Christ, we are totally forgiven in terms of our position as eternal children of God.
__In Christ we have…the forgiveness of sins (Col 1:14).
__God has forgiven you ALL trespasses (Col 2:13-14).

But positional forgiveness does not mean that we always are in fellowship with God. The disobedient servant received temporal punishment for his failure to forgive another servant. Forgiven people need forgiveness in order to remain in fellowship with God.

The Arminain heresy ignores context – again! Jesus presented this parable as a response to Peter’s question regarding the number of times that he should forgive a brother. Jesus links His temporal present forgiveness of the believer’s confessional requests with the forgiveness of others.

This does not make the eternal forgiveness of sins and destiny conditional upon fickle human capacity to forgive others. God’s word teaches that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God (Rom 8:39). Although nothing can sever God’s child from this so great love, sin inhibits fellowship. Sin “vitiates” service. Thus, the confession of sin is crucial to the close walk of fellowship with Jesus.

God’s forgiveness of sins begun in past salvation is not dependent upon the present confession of sins. But God’s present salvation forgiveness of sins is dependent upon the believer’s forgiveness of others. Jesus is serious about loving our enemies.

Please note that past salvation determines eternal destiny while present salvation is the measure of a believer’s victory over the power of sin.

Lloyd
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
LLOYD SAID : How can one do theology without understanding the basics? BTW, this great comment originated with steaver.
Lloyd, Jim made the comment because Jim thinks that a born again Christain can stop believing in Jesus. I posted his comment to challenge it.

But you make a good point about declaring the contract. I don't think limiting it to noon today is enough time because many folks are busy on Saturdays and I think Bob worships on Saturday morning.

God Bless!
thumbs.gif
 

ascund

New Member
Hey steaver

You might have a point, but I'm not hep on a prospective apology (hep?? I guess I just dated myself).


Let me correct this. I'm not cool on a prospective apology!

Lloyd
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Just found this little gaming section from Lloyd!

What a hoot!

Rom 10
8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
Get it?

A myopic nugget-Gospel DOWNSIZED for OSAS is NOT supportable in the NT text!!

And now for another good description of the transaction process -

Heb 8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

13 When He said, "" A new covenant,'' He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
Notice the list of "I WILL" and the list of "THEY WILL" ?? Yet?

Notice that this is OT Scripture STILL AUTHORTATIVE in the NT text!

Notice we have the CONTINUED OT text in the NT called "scripture" repeatedly by the NT SAINTS.

ONE Gospel in BOTH Texts!!

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by steaver:

Lloyd, Jim made the comment because Jim thinks that a born again Christain can stop believing in Jesus.
Hold the phone Steaver!!

Lloyd believes what you just said. Lloyd has been arguing for the faithless, unbelieving heart of the saints -- as SAVED!

Jim as you note ALSO BELIEVES that a believer can choose to STOP BELIEVING.

Steaver this is an important point - don't miss it.

The 3 and 5 pt Calvinist DOES NOT believe that a Christian "CAN STOP BELIEVING". THEY claim that once you are saved YOU WILL persevere.

NEITHER Jim or Lloyd have argued for that .

In your quote above you "appear" to imply that YOU would argue the point that once saved - a true saint WILL persevere firm until the end.

That is in fact a THIRD position in the debate between Jim and Lloyd. (And between me and Lloyd when Lloyd stops ranting long enough to actually debate the point)

Lloyd's position is very much like a 4 point Calvinist in the aspect of denying the Bible doctrine on Perseverance and Endurance. That is why I keep posting the devastating texts that utterly debunk Lloyd's position there - and that is why he keeps running from them saying he will not read them today.

See?

In Christ,

Bob
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bob said:

The 3 and 5 pt Calvinist DOES NOT believe that a Christian "CAN STOP BELIEVING". THEY claim that once you are saved YOU WILL persevere.
I guess Calvin got something right!
Bob said:

In your quote above you "appear" to imply that YOU would argue the point that once saved - a true saint WILL persevere firm until the end.
Yes this is true. Once born of God one cannot become unborn. Therefore if they were to go to the lake of fire they would go there as a child of God having the Holy Spirit, the living water. One is either born a child of God or one remains a child of the devil through unbelief. One cannot be unborn from that which they have been born.

Bob said:

Lloyd's position is very much like a 4 point Calvinist in the aspect of denying the Bible doctrine on Perseverance and Endurance. That is why I keep posting the devastating texts that utterly debunk Lloyd's position there - and that is why he keeps running from them saying he will not read them today.
Lloyd simply understands that the biblical doctrine of Perseverence and Endurance does not carry any wieght of salvation hanging in the balance. It is for the encouragement and sanctifiaction of the saved. The "devestating texts" are only seen as such from your misunderstandings of what it means to be born again. You still need to explain how one becomes born of God yet goes to the lake of fire. Answer my opening question to this thread. Does God send His children to hell?

God Bless!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Steaver -

You said
Lloyd simply understands that the biblical doctrine of Perseverence and Endurance does not carry any wieght of salvation hanging in the balance. It is for the encouragement and sanctifiaction of the saved. The "devestating texts" are only seen as such from your misunderstandings of what it means to be born again. You still need to explain how one becomes born of God yet goes to the lake of fire. Answer my opening question to this thread. Does God send His children to hell?
I am sorry but in objective logic and reason (which means - outside the realm of Calvinism) --You can not have it "both ways".

The retro-deleted assurance and salvation - principle of the 3 and 5 point Calvinist - states cleary that IF you FAIL to persevere TEN YEARs from TODAY - that in fact ALL of your salvatin and ASSURANCE you claim to have today - is null and void.

For you to insist that future failure to persevere HAD NO effect at all on your claims for assurance or salvation TODAY - is to ignore your own argument.

You can not embraace Lloyd's argument AND YOURS at the same time -- (at least not - and still make sense).

You need to pick one or the other OR pick the answer that is actually right.

The one that admits to aLL the facts of Matt 18 FORGIVENESS REVOKED, To Justification PAST, and to Perseverance ESSENTIAL.

In other words - hold to the COMPLETE BIBLE!

In Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
Paul shows that the “SAVING’ them is the whole point of this Gospel preaching. He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them. He mentions nothing about those saved getting big houses in heaven nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven. His entire focus is not on “What perk do I get” but on the great value/reward of SALVATION itself as the goal and objective of the Gospel received when preached “to others”.

Now comes that “unpleasant section” for many where Paul points out the seriousness of this Gospel pursuit for the goal of saving people -- so that I may by all means save some. as he says.

23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified
It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to participate in preaching. He then shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)

So now in this “fellow partaker of the Gospel” model for ALL that Paul is offering (in the form of his own life example) he shows how it works. He shows the perspective of the saint, the attitude, the focus the Olympic ALL for the Gospel focus that is NEEDED. IN fact he argues that it is critical EVEN for an Apostle for even in this most exaulted case HE is at risk “LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified” from that very Gospel!

How instructive!

Yet how fervently ignored by those who find this to be an “unpleasant” section of scripture!

Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.

Or do you read vs 23-27 and respond with

Are you saved by self discipline of your body?
And so when Paul says

1 Tim 4
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
Do you respond with

"Are you saved by your efforts of paying close attention, persevering and taking pains with those disciplines?"

Will your response to each of these displeasing texts be simply to challenge them and show how your view of "other texts" don't allow these unpleasant texts to exist??


When Paul says

Phil 3
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Do you respond with I would hope that you are humble enough to put no faith in yourself........and at least a little in God!

In an effort to misdirect away from the texts above where Paul is being crystal clear – perhaps when you see yourself needing to “gloss over” the details of these text and you respond to them as “inconvenient” to your views on other texts (like Eph 2 for example) it is a sign that those other texts are being taken to extremes in your interpretation.

When we let THE TEXT speak does it cause you to immediately jump to some other "more comfortable" text?

IF so - it is a sign that you have taken what your comfortable texts do not actually say explicitly and have added "inferences" that were never in those texts to start with.

In the case of these "unpleasant" texts - it is the mere quote of them and the insistence on seeing their details rather than glossing over them that is causes so many to have heart burn.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bob said:

I am sorry but in objective logic and reason (which means - outside the realm of Calvinism) --You can not have it "both ways".

The retro-deleted assurance and salvation - principle of the 3 and 5 point Calvinist - states cleary that IF you FAIL to persevere TEN YEARs from TODAY - that in fact ALL of your salvatin and ASSURANCE you claim to have today - is null and void.
I'm sorry Bob I guess you lost me somewhere along the way. I have no idea what these points of Calvinism is so I was only responding to what you said they were.

You said...."The 3 and 5 pt Calvinist DOES NOT believe that a Christian "CAN STOP BELIEVING". THEY claim that once you are saved YOU WILL persevere".

Then you said... "The retro-deleted assurance and salvation - principle of the 3 and 5 point Calvinist - states cleary that IF you FAIL to persevere TEN YEARs from TODAY - that in fact ALL of your salvatin and ASSURANCE you claim to have today - is null and void".

Now just what do they believe? Once saved you WILL perservere or Once saved you can FAIL to perservere?

Sounds to me like you presented Calvin both ways.

Now back to the opening title. Does God send His children to hell? You must be born of God, right Bob? Do you birth yourself or is this an act of God? Can you unbirth yourself? Questions that need some answers, thank you!

God Bless!
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Regarind Matt 18 where Peter asks "How many times SHALL MY BROTHER OFFEND me and yet I forgive him".

Christ answers with the parable saying "THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN is like a King who had many servants..."

Bob
So why not keep the context in focus, instead of going off in some other tangent.
How many times shall I forgive mey brother?
7 times?
No, but I say to you seventy times seven!
In other words as oft as your brother offends you, you shall forgive him, and then Jesus went on to give a parable to illustrate this point.

The question I have for you is: Why do you try and read into a parable more than what was ever intended? The parable, an illustration, was meant to answer the truth presented by Jesus, on how often we should forgive our brother, and no more. We do not have to find a meaning for every single thing that Jesus says in his parable. We are not dealing with allegories here. Otherwise you are following the Cathoic Saint, Augustine, who popularized this method of Bible hermeneutics, instead of properly rightly dividing the Word of Truth. The truth is that Jesus was simply illustration one truth and one truth only. And that is how often and in what way (compassionately) we should forgive our brothers. To read anything else into this passage is frivilous and unneedful.
DHK
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That would be the obvious brother DHK, but Bob is desperate for something to say that which it simply does not. If we were to use Bob's method of dividing the truth in this passage, after 490 times we could then stop forgiving our brothers for that is EACTLY what Jesus said, do it 490 times! Is that what Jesus was teaching Bob? Do it 490 times?

God Bless!
 

ascund

New Member
Greetings DHK and Steaver

Congrats. You both have properly responded to this difficult passage. Let me add a third attempt.

Matt 18: 21-35 (Luke 19:11-27)

The parable shows the initial forgiveness that every believer has “in Christ.” The master of the parable forgave the servant a multi-billion debt. This illustrates the believer’s initial and positional forgiveness. The Bible is clear that at the moment we believe in Christ, we are totally forgiven in terms of our position as eternal children of God.
__In Christ we have…the forgiveness of sins (Col 1:14).
__God has forgiven you ALL trespasses (Col 2:13-14).

But positional forgiveness does not mean that we always are in fellowship with God. The disobedient servant received temporal punishment for his failure to forgive another servant. Forgiven people need forgiveness in order to remain in fellowship with God.

The Arminian heresy ignores context – again! Jesus presented this parable as a response to Peter’s question regarding the number of times that he should forgive a brother. Jesus links His temporal present forgiveness of the believer’s confessional requests with the forgiveness of others.

This does not make the eternal forgiveness of sins and destiny conditional upon fickle human capacity to forgive others. God’s word teaches that nothing can separate the believer from the love of God (Rom 8:39). Although nothing can sever God’s child from this so great love, sin inhibits fellowship. Sin “vitiates” service. Thus, the confession of sin is crucial to the close walk of fellowship with Jesus.

God’s forgiveness of sins begun in past salvation is not dependent upon the present confession of sins. But God’s present salvation forgiveness of sins is dependent upon the believer’s forgiveness of others. Jesus is serious about loving our enemies.

Please note that past salvation determines eternal destiny while present salvation is the measure of a believer’s victory over the power of sin.

Lloyd
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Bob said:

I am sorry but in objective logic and reason (which means - outside the realm of Calvinism) --You can not have it "both ways".

The retro-deleted assurance and salvation - principle of the 3 and 5 point Calvinist - states cleary that IF you FAIL to persevere TEN YEARs from TODAY - that in fact ALL of your salvatin and ASSURANCE you claim to have today - is null and void.
Originally posted by steaver:

I'm sorry Bob I guess you lost me somewhere along the way. I have no idea what these points of Calvinism is so I was only responding to what you said they were.

You said...."The 3 and 5 pt Calvinist DOES NOT believe that a Christian "CAN STOP BELIEVING". THEY claim that once you are saved YOU WILL persevere".

Then you said... "The retro-deleted assurance and salvation - principle of the 3 and 5 point Calvinist - states cleary that IF you FAIL to persevere TEN YEARs from TODAY - that in fact ALL of your salvatin and ASSURANCE you claim to have today - is null and void".

Now just what do they believe? Once saved you WILL perservere or Once saved you can FAIL to perservere?
They believe as you do - that once saved you WILL persevere!

Here is where and I differ in one way - I agree with you that the one who perseveres from salvation to the end - is "saved the entire time". I just think some of the lost were also "saved at one time".


You and Lloyd differ because HE thinks you easily might NOT persevere but being a mass murderer and a pagan after you were a Christian should still leave you saved no matter what.

Sounds to me like you presented Calvin both ways.
Actually the 4 point Calvinists would agree with Lloyd -- that perseverance is optional. Do it if you fell like it - kinda salvation "no matter what".

Steaver -

Now back to the opening title. Does God send His children to hell? You must be born of God, right Bob? Do you birth yourself or is this an act of God? Can you unbirth yourself? Questions that need some answers, thank you!
You don't "birth yourself" but BEFORE you are saved you must CHOOSE faith in Christ.

So how are you answering that question?

"BEHOLD I STAND at the door and knock if anyone HEARS AND OPENS the door I WILL come IN "

In Christ,

Bob
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bob:

You don't "birth yourself" but BEFORE you are saved you must CHOOSE faith in Christ.

So how are you answering that question?
I am not talking about BEFORE you are saved! I am talking about AFTER you are BORN OF GOD!

You forgot to answer one of my questions...Can you unbirth yourself? If yes, please explain how that is done.

God Bless!
thumbs.gif
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Could holy sinless perfect living Adam "UNCREATE himself"? No? But he still died, got sick, sinned and was "in need of Salvation"!!

We can not UNBIRTH ourselves but God "destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in hell" Matt 10.

So call it "unbirth if you like".

In Christ,

Bob
 
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