Does God send His children to hell?

[Claudia_T]

Yes you can "unbirth" yourself, if you'd like to call it that. Read the story of the man who was forgiven of his sins.

The man owed the king (representing Jesus Himself) a great sum of money that he could not pay. The King forgave him of his debt and let him out of prison. Lets call this the "born again" experience.

The problem here is that this man decided to NOT keep the Law of God, in other words he did not treat others as he would desire to be treated, he was mean spirited, unforgiving, ungodly.

So what happened?

The King "unforgave him" so to speak, "unbirthed" him so to speak, and he tossed him back into prison, cast him into hell, so to speak.

And so the answer is definitely YES, you can have your sentence reversed. You can be at one time in RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD and then turn around and be IN WRONG STANDING WITH GOD. Right back where you started.

Because you see, we ARE forgiven based on no merit of our own, entirely, we did NOTHING to deserve forgiveness. B U T... the Bible clearly teaches that if we are not then REPENTENT of our former bad habits and ways, our former heartlessness toward others, our former ungodliness, THEN we have our sentence REVERSED and are "unbirthed".

You have chosen to go BACK to the mire of sin. And you will be judged accordingly.


Matthew 18:

23: Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24: And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25: But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26: The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27: Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28: But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29: And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30: And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31: So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32: Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34: And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35: So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

 

[Claudia_T]

Let me just explain this idea a little further.

Do you see the principles laid out in these two Bible verses?

Mt:5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 6:12: And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

They STILL APPLY once you have been 'SAVED'.

Just because you have been 'saved' at one time and forgiven, doesnt mean you now have a license to live like a pig

You arent given salvation as a free gift, in order to .. along with it... give you a free pass to now go out and sin.

You STILL cannot go around treating people with cruelty, you STILL cannot murder, you cannot steal, you cannot commit adultery, you cannot worship idols... you cannot be unmerciful, unforgiving and so on.


and if you DO... if you go back to your former ways THEN your former "death sentence" will be put right back upon you.... as if you were never forgiven.

Think of it like this...

If you go out and break the law in your town, and you shoot someone, or whatever, you steal. You get the death sentence, lets say.

You beg the judge to please forgive you although you have done NOTHING to deserve forgiveness, it is totally because of the judges mercy that he lets you go free.

Well can you just go out now and murder someone else or steal? OF COURSE NOT!! Thats not why the judge let you go free!

YES it was completely undeserved by you... FREE GRACE... BUT...

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE read this and think about what it means:

2 Peter 3:
14: Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16: But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17: These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18: For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

These evil men KNEW the right way BUT THEY FORSOOK IT and turned BACK to their former evil ways.

Does this passage teach that they are still "once saved always saved"?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Clearly it says "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Isnt this clear enough? yes you can be "unborn" "unsaved" "re-condemned"

Claudia

 

[steaver]

Bob:

We can not UNBIRTH ourselves but God "destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in hell" Matt 10.

I must take that as a "yes, God's children do go to hell". I must ask then, what is the point in being born of God? Jesus seemed to put a great weight on it.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Hi Claudia, It is refreshing to see you engage in a conversation. It makes for good fellowship.

Yes you can "unbirth" yourself, if you'd like to call it that. Read the story of the man who was forgiven of his sins.

I've read it many times. I see no unbirthing going on. The man refused to forgive another's debt and God threw him in prison.

Because you see, we ARE forgiven based on no merit of our own, entirely, we did NOTHING to deserve forgiveness. B U T... the Bible clearly teaches that if we are not then REPENTENT of our former bad habits and ways, our former heartlessness toward others, our former ungodliness, THEN we have our sentence REVERSED and are "unbirthed".

Claudia, you are making things up. There is no such thing a being unborn. Can't happen! Never! My question was really rhetorical because the only answer is "no, one cannot be unborn". It was meant to have you see the purpose in being born again.

Therefore you too must answer "yes, God sends His children to hell".

Otherwise, give me a reason why God requires a rebirth. What is the point for being born again?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Clearly it says "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Isnt this clear enough? yes you can be "unborn" "unsaved" "re-condemned"

It is clear that these false teachers are " wells without water "(vs 17) Therefore they are not saved and never were saved because Jesus said... "...whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst ; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life ."(John 4:14) Now if Jesus said it shall be , then I believe Him!

This clearly reveals that those Peter speaks of were never born of God. So you would need to correct your view of the passage bringing it into line with the undesputable passages that declare OSAS.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob:

We can not UNBIRTH ourselves but God "destroys BOTH body AND SOUL in hell" Matt 10.

Originally posted by steaver:

I must take that as a "yes, God's children do go to hell". I must ask then, what is the point in being born of God? Jesus seemed to put a great weight on it.

This is just the same question one could ask of Adam.

"What?!! you got kicked out of the garden, denied access to the tree of life, condemned to a long life of seeing sin in action and then sickness and death??? Well then what is the point of having been created by God??!! God seems to make a big deal out of it in Gen 1 and 2... must not have been such a great thing after all??"

In otherwords - the fact that FREE WILL has consequences was NEVER an argument AGAINST the glory, priviledge, blessing of Lucifer's creation as a covering Cherub, or Adam's creation as the first man... NOR is it a "hit against God" that a SINNER who is saved is given that SAME RIGHT of choice as Adam had - as Lucifer had - to go aGAINST his maker to LEAVE unity, UNION with Christ of his own free will!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly it says "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Isnt this clear enough? yes you can be "unborn" "unsaved" "re-condemned"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a good point. For there is nothing worse than being lost and going to hell. Being "loster" is never considered the "great thing for the ALREADY LOST to avoid".

The Bible is NOT a manual for the LOST in HOW TO BE LOST the BEST WAY you Can!!

It is always about GOING To Christ and Salvation and NOT turning back from that!

It is NEVER about "making the MOST out of being lost".

So the text above that talks about it being too bad, and so sad that it is "impossible to renew them AGAIN to " that place from which they fell -- DOES NOT speak of "the blessed lost state" from which they FELL!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

This is just the same question one could ask of Adam.

"What?!! you got kicked out of the garden, denied access to the tree of life, condemned to a long life of seeing sin in action and then sickness and death??? Well then what is the point of having been created by God??!! God seems to make a big deal out of it in Gen 1 and 2... must not have been such a great thing after all??"

In otherwords - the fact that FREE WILL has consequences was NEVER an argument AGAINST the glory, priviledge, blessing of Lucifer's creation as a covering Cherub, or Adam's creation as the first man... NOR is it a "hit against God" that a SINNER who is saved is given that SAME RIGHT of choice as Adam had - as Lucifer had - to go aGAINST his maker to LEAVE unity, UNION with Christ of his own free will!

In Christ,

Bob

Hey Bob, just slow down and think for a minute. I have a question. It seems hard for you to give me an answer. What is the point in being born of God?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

I just did - it is the SAME point in ALL of God's birthings - in ALL of His "creation" in ALL of His blessings. Being born of God places you in UNITY with Christ - it brings about the NEW creation and it maintains free will.

As long as you CAN CHOOSE you can ALWAYS CHOOSE something else -- and if you do God will see. So there is no "box for God". No way to "Trap him" into taking away free will or into "not seeing" what you choose.

And that is EXACTLY why God would use an illustration like MAtt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" as a motivating warning FOR THE SAVED. "So shall My Heavenly Father do to each of you if you ..."

That is EXACTLY why God uses the Romans 11 warning of the failing of Israel saying "Do not be conceited for you too will be cut out IF you do not continue in faith".

This too is obvious. He places warnings INTO scripture that PERFECTLY fit the model I have described. No boxing God in.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
This is just the same question one could ask of Adam.

"What?!! you got kicked out of the garden, denied access to the tree of life, condemned to a long life of seeing sin in action and then sickness and death??? Well then what is the point of having been created by God??!! God seems to make a big deal out of it in Gen 1 and 2... must not have been such a great thing after all??"

In otherwords - the fact that FREE WILL has consequences was NEVER an argument AGAINST the glory, priviledge, blessing of Lucifer's creation as a covering Cherub, or Adam's creation as the first man... NOR is it a "hit against God" that a SINNER who is saved is given that SAME RIGHT of choice as Adam had - as Lucifer had - to go aGAINST his maker to LEAVE unity, UNION with Christ of his own free will!

In Christ,

Bob

This is the same question you could ask of me.
Yes, I got kicked out of my home, denied access to the house, and condemned to a long life of seeing sin in action (outside the safety of the walls of my own household), and then sickness (without the good care of my mother).
Well then what was the point of even having been born of my parents??!! My parents seem to make a big deal out of it... must not have been such a great thing after all??"

In otherwords - the fact that I have FREE WILL has consequences was NEVER an argument AGAINST the glory, priviledge, blessing of Lucifer's creation as a covering Cherub, or of my birth in the family. NOR is it a "hit against God" that a SINNER who is saved is given that SAME RIGHT of choice as I had -- to go aGAINST my father to LEAVE my family, UNION with my father and the rest of the family, of my own free will!
But no matter what happens I will always be his child. The DNA doesn't change. A son will always be a son. The fact that I was born out of a union between my mother and my father is a fact of history that will never change. You can't go back and undo history. So it is with salvation.
DHK

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thank you, DHK! Now I know I also 'stand a chance'!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There is great irony in 'free-will' dogma. Not Adam, who was made in the image of God and sinless and without an ignorant or trained tendency to evil, when he exercised it - against God's personal command not to try it out - failed!
Now come the Hercules by the scores of ten millions times ten millions to prove Adam wrong - that in fact he could have lifted himself by the strings of his boots!

 

[steaver]

Bob, you said:

I just did - it is the SAME point in ALL of God's birthings - in ALL of His "creation" in ALL of His blessings. Being born of God places you in UNITY with Christ - it brings about the NEW creation and it maintains free will.

This still does not answer the question. What is the POINT?!

Yes, it places you in unity with Christ. Yes, it brings about a new creature.

I know what it DOES! But what is the POINT or PURPOSE for doing what it does? From your perspective it has no purpose. I could "believe" without a rebirth. I could follow words on paper without a rebirth. I could be a disciple of Jesus Christ without a rebirth.

What is the POINT/PURPOSE of the rebirth?

Purpose..." n 1. Design, intention, a desired end. 2. Determination. vt To intend: to propose to oneself as an end."

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Gerhard posted:

There is great irony in 'free-will' dogma. Not Adam, who was made in the image of God and sinless and without an ignorant or trained tendency to evil, when he exercised it - against God's personal command not to try it out - failed!
Now come the Hercules by the scores of ten millions times ten millions to prove Adam wrong - that in fact he could have lifted himself by the strings of his boots!

Irony indeed! Perfect Adam failed but Bob is going to keep every commandment! Are you greater than Adam, Bob?

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said
In otherwords - the fact that FREE WILL has consequences was NEVER an argument AGAINST the glory, priviledge, blessing of Lucifer's creation as a covering Cherub, or Adam's creation as the first man... NOR is it a "hit against God" that a SINNER who is saved is given that SAME RIGHT of choice as Adam had - as Lucifer had - to go aGAINST his maker to LEAVE unity, UNION with Christ of his own free will!

Originally posted by DHK:
This is the same question you could ask of me.
Yes, I got kicked out of my home, denied access to the house, and condemned to a long life of seeing sin in action (outside the safety of the walls of my own household), and then sickness (without the good care of my mother).
Well then what was the point of even having been born of my parents??!! My parents seem to make a big deal out of it... must not have been such a great thing after all??"

When you say "I got kicked out" is that how you translate my statement above "OF HIS OWN FREE WILL CHOOSES to LEAVE and live in rebellion"??

I fail to see how one could so easily "equivocate" on that point.

Perhaps you can explain.

Everyone else seems to have gone for it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by steaver:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Gerhard posted:

There is great irony in 'free-will' dogma.

Irony indeed! Perfect Adam failed but Bob is going to keep every commandment! Are you greater than Adam, Bob?

</font>[/QUOTE]#1. If you are going to ask me a question is is probably not a good idea to quote GE and then try to hold me accountable for what he says.

#2. You will find NO TEXT IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE that argues your point that WE ALL SHOULD REBEL against God SINCE Adam did and after all WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE?!!

#3. Notice that in the contrast chapter between Adam and Christ (Romans 5) NEVER do we see Paul making YOUR argument that WE SHOULD ALL CHOOSE rebellion and anyone who does not is trying to be "greater than sinless Adam".

So since you never find your own argument in all of scripture - where do you get it from?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God argues in 1Cor 10 "NO temptation has overtaken you but SUCH as is common to man - and God is FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted BEYOND that which YOU are able. But will WITH the temptation provide the way of escape"

This promise of God is marginalized by those who seek to compose arguments in favor of rebellion against God - who say "who are you to choose better than sinless Adam?"

This contrast coulc not be more obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you said:

I just did - it is the SAME point in ALL of God's birthings - in ALL of His "creation" in ALL of His blessings. Being born of God places you in UNITY with Christ - it brings about the NEW creation and it maintains free will.

Originally posted by steaver:

This still does not answer the question. What is the POINT?!

What is 'the point" of being restored to union with Christ, the New Birth, the new creation IF you still are going to be ALLOWED to have free will and to CHOOSE?

Is that your question?

This is pure Calvinism.

Yes, it places you in unity with Christ. Yes, it brings about a new creature.

I know what it DOES! But what is the POINT or PURPOSE for doing what it does? From your perspective it has no purpose.

Being saved from sin - and placed in the family of God WHILE RETAINING FREE WILL is the promised blessing of the Gospel.

One may choose to REMAIN safe and saved -- as Adam chose to REMAIN sinless -- until the day came when Adam MADE ANOTHER CHOICE.

God was not trapped in a box with Adam - nor is He trapped with the saints.

That is why we have MATT 18 warnings "SO SHALL MY FATHER do to EACH OF YOU if you do not..."

How can this be more obvious?

Steaver --
I could "believe" without a rebirth. I could follow words on paper without a rebirth. I could be a disciple of Jesus Christ without a rebirth.

Read Romans 3 to SEE all that you would do without a rebirth.

To be "CONFORMED to HIS IMAGE" Romans 8 and to be taken to heaven if one "PERSEVERES FIRM UNTIL THE END".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Yep - the Gospel is a "good deal" a mangificent gift.

So -- be not deceived.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

#1. If you are going to ask me a question is is probably not a good idea to quote GE and then try to hold me accountable for what he says.

#2. You will find NO TEXT IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE that argues your point that WE ALL SHOULD REBEL against God SINCE Adam did and after all WHO DO WE THINK WE ARE?!!

#3. Notice that in the contrast chapter between Adam and Christ (Romans 5) NEVER do we see Paul making YOUR argument that WE SHOULD ALL CHOOSE rebellion and anyone who does not is trying to be "greater than sinless Adam".

So since you never find your own argument in all of scripture - where do you get it from?

In Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

#1 Doesn't matter who made the point, I simply asked you a question.
#2 I never made a point that we should all rebel.
#3 I never made an argument that we should all rebel.

Where are you getting this stuff?

I think I said..."Perfect Adam failed but Bob is going to keep every commandment! Are you greater than Adam, Bob?

So are you perfect or not? Did you ever break a commandment of God's after you were born again?

God Bless!