Does God send His children to hell?

[Kamoroso]

John 3 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

To be born again, is to be born of the Spirit. That is to say, that those who are born again, have the Holy Spirit of God within them.

Psalm 51

TO THE CHIEF MUSICIAN, A PSALM OF DAVID, WHEN NATHAN THE PROPHET CAME UNTO HIM, AFTER HE HAD GONE IN TO BATHSHEBA.

1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence;and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar


Genesis 41 38And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

1 Samuel 10 6And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man. 7And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee. 8And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and show thee what thou shalt do.
9And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day. 10And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. 11And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?


1 Samuel 16 And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. 13Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.


2 Chronicles 24 19Yet he sent prophets to them, to bring them again unto the LORD; and they testified against them: but they would not give ear. 20And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of Jehoiada the priest, which stood above the people, and said unto them, Thus saith God, Why transgress ye the commandments of the LORD, that ye cannot prosper? because ye have forsaken the LORD, he hath also forsaken you.

2 Peter 1 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

[steaver]

TO THE CHIEF MUSICIAN, A PSALM OF DAVID, WHEN NATHAN THE PROPHET CAME UNTO HIM, AFTER HE HAD GONE IN TO BATHSHEBA.

1 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Cast me not away from thy presence;and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall show forth thy praise.
16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar

I am having trouble seeing this as David being born again, to view this as a rebirth. David declares that he already has the holy spirit when he asked for it not to be taken from him. Yet David asked for the creation of a new heart.

The Holy Spirit was clearly with men and women throughout the OT, even speaking in them, as through them. I am not sure that means they were "born again".

I am assuming that the verses you highlighted in bold type are verses that you believe point to an OT rebirth, of David I assume. If this is the case, is David asking to be "born again" again ?

Maybe this passage is an acknowledgement of "guilty" and a prophecy of things to come, like a future sin cleansing rebirth.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

1 Samuel 16 And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he. 13Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.
14But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

I am assuming once again that this passage is presented to show a "rebirth" of David? Does this then mean that Saul was once born again, then was unborn, and then needed to be born again again in order to go to heaven? Do you think Saul made it to heaven or was he sentenced to hell after the Spirit of the LORD departed from him? David later asked for a clean heart, did he get a second rebirthing?

Now were getting into the realm of being born again and again. Is this possible?

These are all questions that need to be answewed before determining that the OT is showing us rebirths and unbirths.

God Bless!

 

[DHK]

Nicodemus was one of the most devout and knowledgeable Jews of the time of Christ, and yet was not born of the Spirit. How do we know? Jesus said he wasn't. He directly told him: Nicodemus you must be born again! You must be born of the Spirit. This is before the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers on a permanent basis. Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus meant. He assumed his physical heritage of being a Jew would get him there. Jesus said it wouldn't. He had to be born again of the Spirit of God.
The Spirit's ministry in the Old Testament was different. It was on again--off again. You can see that in the person of Samson. The Spirit of the Lord came upon Samson, from whence he gained his supernatural strength. But when the Spirit departed from him, his strength departed from him.
In this age we don't have to worry about that. That is one of the proofs of OSAS. We have the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. He never leaves us. Nicodemus had to come to understand this. Perhaps he would fully understand this in a few years when the Day of Pentecost came, and he would still be alive to see it. The he would fully realize his discussion with Jesus. That point and time in history was less than three years away. As for the present he was a believer in the Messiah, as was Simon when he brought Peter, as was Peter when he testified of Christ, as was Nathaniel when he believed. These all believed that Christ was the Messiah. And that was all that was required at that time. You are splitting hairs over "born again" theology. What must I do to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. This is what they did.
DHK

 

[steaver]

I must agree with DHK. Another thing I always wondered about is must the OT saints who have passed away recieve the new birth? I suppose they would once Jesus had been glorified. All of the other believers had to wait for it as well (John 7:39)

Being born again was a new thing. A new task of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit would seal all believers forever. No more needing a Pharisee or a Priest to teach you the way of Eternal Life. You would have it and know it with the seal of God living right with your spirit, two becoming as one. Praise Jesus!

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob posted:

He is pressing the point with Nicodemus that as a teacher ofscripture he can not claim ignorance about the new birth. This is the pre-cross reality that Christ presses home with Nicodemus.

Originally posted by steaver:

What scriptures would have taught Nicodemus about the rebirth?

Listen to yourself - you are making the argument AGAINST Christ As HE INSISTS "Are you a teacher in Israel and YET you claim not to know these things"??

#1. How do you justify that position?

#2. We know from 2Cor 5 and Heb 8 that the new creation involves the new heart. And we see that this is claimed as the New Covenant Gospel for all of God's people. Heb 8 SHOWS us that this is OT TEACHING!

There is no need to "guess". As it turns out - Christ was right in His PRECROSS rebuke of Nicodemus.

Even Saul in the OT was said to have received a new heart.

Bob posted:

"For this reason the Gospel was preached BEFORE HAND to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

"We have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also had" HEb 4:2.

Originally posted by steaver:

Maybe it will help me if you define the "Good News" for me by posting it from the OT and then from the NT.

Again - your position is to challenge both Paul and Christ.

Or do you prefer to think of ME as the author of the NT - so when you see the statements above - you can "blame me"??

Would you like to take a look at Isaiah 53 together?

Not only is the New Heart basic to the New Covenant of the OT it is also SEEN in the Bible statements about Saul.

Or maybe Paul and Christ "were wrong" and you are right Steve - I did not consider that possibility.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Even Saul in the OT was said to have received a new heart.

Bob

This is where you are wrong, and it is a classic example of how you take Scripture out of context.
I don't expect to see Saul in Heaven; I don't believe that he was saved. He continually went against the will of God in his life, even stooping to visit a witch to "discern the will of God." This man did not have a new heart, nor the Spirit of God.
DHK

 

[steaver]

Bob posted:

Listen to yourself - you are making the argument AGAINST Christ As HE INSISTS "Are you a teacher in Israel and YET you claim not to know these things"??

#1. How do you justify that position?

#2. We know from 2Cor 5 and Heb 8 that the new creation involves the new heart. And we see that this is claimed as the New Covenant Gospel for all of God's people. Heb 8 SHOWS us that this is OT TEACHING!

There is no need to "guess". As it turns out - Christ was right in His PRECROSS rebuke of Nicodemus.

#1 Jesus rebuked Nicodemus for not knowing about the rebirth, but not because it was always available, but rather because it was foretold in scripture to come, although the term "born again" was never used.

The OT scriptures declared it was something needed, not that it was something that could be obtained at any time. This is why David cries out for it. David did not have it as of yet when he penned this for the Holy Ghost. David's cry teaches us, as it should have Nicodemus, the need for a new heart. Nicodemus should also have known that without some kind of transformation by God, no man could ever stand before Him and live.

What Nicodemus could not know is that Jesus was going to call it "born again". Nicodemus was rebuked because he should have asked for more info rather than believing in his heart that Jesus was speaking something impossible! Nicodemus needed a new heart.

#2 Heb 8 shows us just what I said above. A new covenant has come. It wasn't available in the old covenant. The new covenant transistioned with the coming of Jesus Christ. After the death, burial, ressurrection and glorification of Jesus Christ the new covenant became full force..." For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people :" (Heb 8:10)

Nicodemus should have known about the rebirth coming, not that it was always readily available.

quote:
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Bob posted:

"For this reason the Gospel was preached BEFORE HAND to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

"We have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also had" HEb 4:2.

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quote:
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Originally posted by steaver:

Maybe it will help me if you define the "Good News" for me by posting it from the OT and then from the NT.


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Bob:

Again - your position is to challenge both Paul and Christ.

Or do you prefer to think of ME as the author of the NT - so when you see the statements above - you can "blame me"??

You are usually not one to duck a challenge. You don't need to be exhaustive, just give me a few passages from the OT concerning the Good News. I know them, I want to see if you do!

Would you like to take a look at Isaiah 53 together?

Hey, you stumbled onto one! You do notice that the Gospel preached in the OT was prophecy and the Gospel preached in the NT is fullfilled? Same Gospel though, just one is looking forward and one is looking backward. Hebrews is correct of course and Abraham was preached about it's coming as well.

Bob:

Not only is the New Heart basic to the New Covenant of the OT it is also SEEN in the Bible statements about Saul.

Or maybe Paul and Christ "were wrong" and you are right Steve - I did not consider that possibility.

Or maybe Paul and Christ is right (of course) and you Bob don't understand the difference between "old" and "new" or the Gospel being preached as an event to come and the Gospel being preached as an event fullfilled - I have considered that possibility - in fact it is the problem with your misconceptions of the Gospel.

God Bless!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by steaver:
Maybe it will help me if you define the "Good News" for me by posting it from the OT and then from the NT. This would show how it all is the same throughout. Be sure to include the rebirth.

God Bless!

This is the essence of the question being discussed.
The word: "gospel" simply means good news.

But the good news in the Old Testament is the same as it is in the New Testament. Paul takes great pains to demonstrate this:

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.
--This is the key passage, found in the Old Testament, it is quoted yet another three times in the New Testament. It is the basic gospel message, the good news--that a man is justified by faith. There is no other way of salvation than justification. That is the way that Abraham found salvation, as Paul explains in Romans chapter 4. We are justified by faith.

Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Note that it doesn't say faith plus works. The word "alone" in each case is implied. The just shall live by faith alone.
DHK

 

[steaver]

Good info DHK! That sure is "Good News"! Just makes me wanna work all the more, not for justification, but because of the new heart Christ gave me!

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb] Even Saul in the OT was said to have received a new heart.

Bob

DHK -
This is where you are wrong, and it is a classic example of how you take Scripture out of context.
I don't expect to see Saul in Heaven;

OSAS is false - so the fact that one can have a new heart but then FAIL to endure - FAIL to be in heaven -- is no surprise. Rather it FITS MAtt 18 "Forgiveness REVOKED".

It FITS Ezek 18 "Forgiveness REVOKED"

The Point remains - scripture says that he received "A new heart". AND ALSO that He prophesied by the Spirit of God

To the point that the question is asked of Saul "IS SAUL also among the sons of the prophets?"

 

[BobRyan]

DHK does make a good case for the ONE GOSPEL (Gal 1:6-13) in ALL ages from Hab 2:4 quoted in the NT.

As we see Paul argue in Heb 4:1-2...