Does God want to stay hidden?

[BobRyan]

This is basically what I have been coming to understand. And since even Ananias and sapphira were after Christ in the Church age, this to me further points to some sort of significance in AD70, and what the passages on perseverance to avoid judgment were pointing to.

After the final destruction of the OT system of condemnation, we entered the full fruition of grace, where people are no longer judged on the spot.

God lives in us, so we are no longer like the Israelites following the cloud and being struck down at the least thing wrong. That is why this is not a 'two gospel' model.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=791257&postcount=5

#1. Why is this not a TWO Gospel model? Because you DENY that the Gospel was preached in the OT no matter what the Bible says to the contrary?

#2. "Destruction of the OT system" you say does not occur until 70 AD and then we see the system of Grace??

So OT gospel of Condemnation vs NT post- AD70 Gospel of grace?

TWO Gospels?

What about That system of "instant judgment" was the 400 years of "silence" instant judgment?

The times of "instant judgment" in Israel are rare, few and far apart. Many centuries pass with evil kings like Manasseh, Ahab etc,

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eric B]

1) I do not deny the Gospel was "preached" in the OT. Thehe Gospel was preached, but they still looked forward to it, as Christ was yet future.

2) We had grace in the NT period as far as salvation in Christ, yet there was still some instant judgment.

What about That system of "instant judgment" was the 400 years of "silence" instant judgment?

The times of "instant judgment" in Israel are rare, few and far apart. Many centuries pass with evil kings like Manasseh, Ahab etc,

This was all you had to say before, then. So you believe that God's "closeness" and the accompanying "judgment" comes in certain periods. Do you have any theory on why it has been 2000 years since the last one now?

 

[BobRyan]

1) I do not deny the Gospel was "preached" in the OT. Thehe Gospel was preached, but they still looked forward to it, as Christ was yet future.

This is almost true.

They did not "look forward to the Gospel being true" or to the Gospel "someday coming to mankind". Rather they were ALREADY "saved by Grace through faith". As we see in John 3 they were ALREADY under the Gospel plan of being "Born again". They had the gospel preached to them as PRESENT REALITY JUST as we do TODAY!

They did not have the Gospel as "ONE day God will so love the World. ONE day God will forgiven... ONE day you will need to be born again... ONE Day mankind will be totally depraved and need a Savior... ONE DAY in the future salvation by works will no longer work..." - there were NO such messages pointing to a FUTURE Gospel.

Rather the GOOD NEWS was PRESENT salvation for them based on the FUTURE work of the Messiah. Just as today we have PRESENT salvation based on the PAST work of the Messiah. PAST work that we must "accept by faith alone" since we in fact have NO video of it!

2) We had grace in the NT period as far as salvation in Christ, yet there was still some instant judgment.

There is "instant Judgment" in the Lake of Fire -- Rev 20.

There is "instant judgment" in the Seven Last Plagues - Rev 16.

There was "instant Judgment" with Annanias and Saphira POST Cross!

There have ALSO been MANY long centuries of NO INSTANT judgment in BOTH the OT AND the NT!

Your rule is not working.

This was all you had to say before, then. So you believe that God's "closeness" and the accompanying "judgment" comes in certain periods. Do you have any theory on why it has been 2000 years since the last one now?

If you think there are 2000 years of :"silence from God" then you are not counting the first century AND you are admitting to the first century being included in your idea of grace. So that is pretty interesting.

Secondly - you seem to want to argue that if ANYONE is being judged like Annanias and Saphira then EVERYONE is being excluded from the "fruition of Grace". Where do you find bible texts supporting that?

Is it your claim that Ephesians 2 and the book of Romans are the teaching under a "pre-grace" Gospel?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This was all you had to say before, then. So you believe that God's "closeness" and the accompanying "judgment" comes in certain periods. Do you have any theory on why it has been 2000 years since the last one now?

40 years in the wilderness you have "God near". Then in the time of the Judges you have God at a little distance. Then in the time of the Kings you have God at great distance with Saul.. even Greater distance with Solomon.. and even greater distance still with the centuries of wicked kings to follow. There is far more then 400 years of God being distant from Israel.

 

[Eric B]

This is almost true.

They did not "look forward to the Gospel being true" or to the Gospel "someday coming to mankind". Rather they were ALREADY "saved by Grace through faith". As we see in John 3 they were ALREADY under the Gospel plan of being "Born again". They had the gospel preached to them as PRESENT REALITY JUST as we do TODAY!

They did not have the Gospel as "ONE day God will so love the World. ONE day God will forgiven... ONE day you will need to be born again... ONE Day mankind will be totally depraved and need a Savior... ONE DAY in the future salvation by works will no longer work..." - there were NO such messages pointing to a FUTURE Gospel.

Rather the GOOD NEWS was PRESENT salvation for them based on the FUTURE work of the Messiah. Just as today we have PRESENT salvation based on the PAST work of the Messiah. PAST work that we must "accept by faith alone" since we in fact have NO video of it!

So you believe everything was EXACTLY the same as today! Why then did they have the sacrifice system? Why didn't Christ simply come and die right after Adam and Eve, and then it would have been the Christian dispensation all along?
The OT saint's knowledge of th eMessiah was very cloudy or even spotty at best. They did not have any knowledge of any "Jesus of Nazareth"; ("under no other name under Heaven shall men be saved"); only of a coming "anointed one", and even then, they did not completely understand what exactly He was to do.

There is "instant Judgment" in the Lake of Fire -- Rev 20.

There is "instant judgment" in the Seven Last Plagues - Rev 16.

There was "instant Judgment" with Annanias and Saphira POST Cross!

There have ALSO been MANY long centuries of NO INSTANT judgment in BOTH the OT AND the NT!

Your rule is not working.

What "rule"? The Seven last Plagues is the end of the age. You have not answered the question of why you think there is no instant judgment in the bulk of this age. (or do you even believe in "ages", or was there only one age until the future Kingdom?)

If you think there are 2000 years of :"silence from God" then you are not counting the first century AND you are admitting to the first century being included in your idea of grace. So that is pretty interesting.

That is a rounded off number. The later part of the first century was in the "silence", while the earlier part was not.

Secondly - you seem to want to argue that if ANYONE is being judged like Annanias and Saphira then EVERYONE is being excluded from the "fruition of Grace". Where do you find bible texts supporting that?

Is it your claim that Ephesians 2 and the book of Romans are the teaching under a "pre-grace" Gospel?

In Christ,

Bob

It is not "pre-grace", and not "everyone being excluded"; it is being under BOTH grace and the Law, overlapping until the Law system (the Temple) was finaly removed. People had grace, but there was stilldanger of instant judgment, accompanying the suppernatural miracles that still occurred. I don't think that is so hard to understand.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
This is almost true.

They did not "look forward to the Gospel being true" or to the Gospel "someday coming to mankind". Rather they were ALREADY "saved by Grace through faith". As we see in John 3 they were ALREADY under the Gospel plan of being "Born again". They had the gospel preached to them as PRESENT REALITY JUST as we do TODAY!

They did not have the Gospel as "ONE day God will so love the World. ONE day God will forgiven... ONE day you will need to be born again... ONE Day mankind will be totally depraved and need a Savior... ONE DAY in the future salvation by works will no longer work..." - there were NO such messages pointing to a FUTURE Gospel.

Rather the GOOD NEWS was PRESENT salvation for them based on the FUTURE work of the Messiah. Just as today we have PRESENT salvation based on the PAST work of the Messiah. PAST work that we must "accept by faith alone" since we in fact have NO video of it!

Eric said --
So you believe everything was EXACTLY the same as today!

"everything was"??

I am saying that the "GOSPEL" was the SAME as it is today because there is and ever has been ONLY ONE!! Gal 1:6-11. The Gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7 - the ONE Gospel mentioned in Gal 1!!

In Heb 4 we find "The Gospel was preached to US JUST AS IT WAS to them ALSO"

Can you blame me for "believing God"??

The "sin problem" worked the SAMe and the solution "The New Birth, Justification and righteousness by faith" worked "THE SAME!

ONE Gospel - not TWO!

Eric
today! Why then did they have the sacrifice system? Why didn't Christ simply come and die right after Adam and Eve, and then it would have been the Christian dispensation all along?
The OT saint's knowledge of th eMessiah was very cloudy or even spotty at best. They did not have any knowledge of any "Jesus of Nazareth"; ("under no other name under Heaven shall men be saved"); only of a coming "anointed one", and even then, they did not completely understand what exactly He was to do.

They had Passover - we have Communion SAME SERVICE using different symbols making the SAME POINT the Lamb of God slain for the sins of the World!

The spring feasts provide revelation about Christ's first coming.

the Fall feasts provide revelation about Christ's second coming.

The sacrifices look forward to the Sacrifice of Christ we look backward to it - BOTH take it BY FAITH!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
Secondly - you seem to want to argue that if ANYONE is being judged like Annanias and Saphira then EVERYONE is being excluded from the "fruition of Grace". Where do you find bible texts supporting that?

Is it your claim that Ephesians 2 and the book of Romans are the teaching under a "pre-grace" Gospel?

In Christ,

Bob

Eric said --
It is not "pre-grace", and not "everyone being excluded"; it is being under BOTH grace and the Law, overlapping until the Law system (the Temple) was finaly removed. People had grace, but there was stilldanger of instant judgment, accompanying the suppernatural miracles that still occurred. I don't think that is so hard to understand.

I see.

So you believe that during the time of the writing of the NT texts the writers are writing to their primary intended audience as being FULLY under GRACE and at the same time in an age where God's Law is not "Abolished"??!!

So then God's Grace does not immediately delete His Word - His Law?

Hmm - I had no idea we were going to agree on something.