Does it matter who baptized you?

[Brother Bob]

"The only way you can get in to our church is to be baptized by one of us"? :tear:

If you have a problem with me calling it "our" church. We know the church is the church of Jesus Christ, but we still like to call it ours too, for we have been a part of it for so long. Sorry if it touches your toes, but I often call it our church and will as long as I got breath in my body. Do you ever invite anyone to your church???? Or are you just a fault finder???

Sorry, I see your church has no name, after looking at your profile.

BBob,

 

[DHK]

Aren't your heels getting tired?

I stand on the Scripture; where do you stand?

 

[trustitl]

If you have a problem with me calling it "our" church. We know the church is the church of Jesus Christ, but we still like to call it ours too, for we have been a part of it for so long. Sorry if it touches your toes, but I often call it our church and will as long as I got breath in my body. Do you ever invite anyone to your church???? Or are you just a fault finder???

Sorry, I see your church has no name, after looking at your profile.

BBob,

My concern is not with people calling a church "ours", but rather with those that act like it is theirs.

You can call me a fault finder if you wish or you can consider what I say. Water baptism is not a tool for local congregations to use for determining who gets to be a member in the church.

 

[Tom Butler]

My concern is not with people calling a church "ours", but rather with those that act like it is theirs.

You can call me a fault finder if you wish or you can consider what I say. Water baptism is not a tool for local congregations to use for determining who gets to be a member in the church.

Wouldl you agree that each congregation should exercise some discretion and discernment as to whom it will accept as a member?

Consider Acts 9:26. Saul, following his conversion, immediately began to preach Christ as Son of God in the synagogues. The Jews eventually plotted to kill him and watched the gates of Damascus to grab him when he came through. His friends let him down over the wall in a basket and he escaped to Jerusalem.

V 26: And when Saul came to Jerusalem, he assayed to join himself to the disciples, but they were afraid of him and believed not that he was a disciple.

Only after Barnabas vouched for he did the Jerusalem congregation accept him.

One Sunday, two young girls, 11 or 12, came down and asked for baptism. My pastor motioned to me to take the girls and counsel them. It immediately became clear that they had no clue what they were doing. The knew nothing of repentance and faith. The simply wanted to do as a couple of their friends had done.

An extreme example, you might say? Given our bloated church roles, little discernment or discretion is exercised regarding baptism, even with adults.

 

[Brother Bob]

My concern is not with people calling a church "ours", but rather with those that act like it is theirs.

You can call me a fault finder if you wish or you can consider what I say. Water baptism is not a tool for local congregations to use for determining who gets to be a member in the church.

Its not for salvation either, for sure or the putting away the filth of the flesh. Its to answer a good concious towards God, and if you don't have the good concious, then how can you answer it.

How do you decern when someone says "our" church, whether they are calling a church "ours", or rather they are acting like it is theirs, because they say "our church". You got some kind of "special" understanding the rest of us don't have??

We probably would be farther along if you consider what I say.

BBob,

 

[trustitl]

Would you agree that each congregation should exercise some discretion and discernment as to whom it will accept as a member?

Yes. I just don't see that scripture teaches baptism as a tool to do it. Also, I think we are misusing this thing called "church membership". As believers we are members one of another irregardless if one is "properly" baptized in water.

 

[drfuss]

Yes, my examples were extreme. They were deliberately listed to test the view that the individual determines whether his baptism is valid, and that the beliefs of the administrator of baptism are of little or no consequence.

I can't comment on your examples because they don't provide me with enough information. Such as, in what church were you originally baptized? What were the denominations you later joined? What was their theology regarding baptism (subject, mode, design, administrator)? There is room for differences regarding eschatology and Calvinism.

Perhaps you could fill in the blanks. And while you're at it, wanna answer my extreme question?

drfuss: My mode of Baptism was the same as in a Baptist church. There is no reason for me to fill in the blanks of the small differences in the different denominations when you consider the large differences between a one point Calvinist and a five point Calvinist to be "room for differences regarding eschatology and Calvinism". That would just open a debate on what is important on the differences of small issues of different denominations; and many Baptist have some misleading and negative views of what other denominations believe.

Consider the differences between a 1 Point Calvinist and a 5 Point Calvinist:

Depravity - A difference on how God deals with depraved man - sounds major to me.
Unconditional Election - The difference on the criteria on how and why man accepts God's free Grace - sounds major to me.
Limited Attonement - The difference on who Christ died for - a very major difference.
Irresistible Grace - The role of man in accepting God's free grace - sounds major to me.

I don't see how you could consider the above to be differences minor enough to be "room for differences within eschatology and Calvinism" with your baptism views. I suppose it is because you are in the SBC which includes both 1 Point Calvinists through 5 Point Calvinists. The SBC would have to have a number of baptism classifications depending on the one who administered the baptism if they were to go by your criteria.

So if you are a 5 Point Calvinist and were batized by a 1 Point Calviniist, you should be rebaptized by a 5 Point Calvinists according to your opinion of what Baptism is all about. Suggest you go back and check on the beliefs of the one who administered your baptism.

 

[trustitl]

How do you decern when someone says "our" church, whether they are calling a church "ours", or rather they are acting like it is theirs, because they say "our church". You got some kind of "special" understanding the rest of us don't have??

Depends on who the "rest of us" is referring to. If you are a believer you have the same source of discernment I do. So one one hand their is nothing special about me but on the other hand their is something unique about me (and all believers) if we only walk in the Spirit.

I Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I am afraid that too many churches have the following in common with the church at Corinth.
I Cor. 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

 

[Tom Butler]

drfuss: My mode of Baptism was the same as in a Baptist church. There is no reason for me to fill in the blanks of the small differences in the different denominations when you consider the large differences between a one point Calvinist and a five point Calvinist to be "room for differences regarding eschatology and Calvinism". That would just open a debate on what is important on the differences of small issues of different denominations; and many Baptist have some misleading and negative views of what other denominations believe.

Consider the differences between a 1 Point Calvinist and a 5 Point Calvinist:

Depravity - A difference on how God deals with depraved man - sounds major to me.
Unconditional Election - The difference on the criteria on how and why man accepts God's free Grace - sounds major to me.
Limited Attonement - The difference on who Christ died for - a very major difference.
Irresistible Grace - The role of man in accepting God's free grace - sounds major to me.

I don't see how you could consider the above to be differences minor enough to be "room for differences within eschatology and Calvinism" with your baptism views. I suppose it is because you are in the SBC which includes both 1 Point Calvinists through 5 Point Calvinists. The SBC would have to have a number of baptism classifications depending on the one who administered the baptism if they were to go by your criteria.

So if you are a 5 Point Calvinist and were batized by a 1 Point Calviniist, you should be rebaptized by a 5 Point Calvinists according to your opinion of what Baptism is all about. Suggest you go back and check on the beliefs of the one who administered your baptism.

I grant your point that there is a big difference between 1-point and 5-point Calvinists. However, if that one point on which we agree is eternal security (Preservation of the Saints) that is a huge factor to me. If one holds to salvation by grace through repentance and faith, baptism of believers only by immersion to picture the gospel and give testimony of salvation, then we can agree to disagree over the TULIP. And eschatology is not a test of fellowship.

I would also have to consider if the baptizer (and his congregation) were of like faith and order, even if they did not carry the name Baptist.

I have changed my theological views over the years, but always within a histioric Baptist framework. If I were to move to a Pentecostal view of the Gifts of the Spirit, tongues, healing, etc., then I should leave my Baptist congregation. It would be both divisive and hypocritical for me to remain there because I am no longer in true fellowship.

I should seek out a fellowship which most nearly is compatible with what I believe and seek to join them. If they required me to be baptized, i would.

I've tried to answer your questions. Do you want to tackle mine, now?

 

[Brother Bob]

Depends on who the "rest of us" is referring to. If you are a believer you have the same source of discernment I do. So one one hand their is nothing special about me but on the other hand their is something unique about me (and all believers) if we only walk in the Spirit.

I Cor. 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

I am afraid that too many churches have the following in common with the church at Corinth.
I Cor. 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

So with your tear drop reply to my first post, must mean that you think I am on the outside looking in. Sure glad you are not my judge. I been preaching for 35 years, almost 36 and will continue on as the Lord leads me. I been Pastor/Moderator of this one church for 19 years, Pastored the last one for 8, so I will continue on, thank you.

It saddens me to think that a preacher would find fault with a happy church, or are you a preacher??? man oh man!!!

If God's children can't be happy, then who can, those who follow Satan??

BBob,

 

[drfuss]

I grant your point that there is a big difference between 1-point and 5-point Calvinists. However, if that one point on which we agree is eternal security (Preservation of the Saints) that is a huge factor to me. If one holds to salvation by grace through repentance and faith, baptism of believers only by immersion to picture the gospel and give testimony of salvation, then we can agree to disagree over the TULIP. And eschatology is not a test of fellowship.

I would also have to consider if the baptizer (and his congregation) were of like faith and order, even if they did not carry the name Baptist.

I have changed my theological views over the years, but always within a histioric Baptist framework. If I were to move to a Pentecostal view of the Gifts of the Spirit, tongues, healing, etc., then I should leave my Baptist congregation. It would be both divisive and hypocritical for me to remain there because I am no longer in true fellowship.

I should seek out a fellowship which most nearly is compatible with what I believe and seek to join them. If they required me to be baptized, i would.

I've tried to answer your questions. Do you want to tackle mine, now?

drfuss: I too have changed my views over the years, but always within a Christian framework. Based on your "historic Baptist framework" rationale, I have no doubt you would think I should be rebaptized. Even though the modifications to my beliefs over the years have been minor and have no effect on my salvation or commitment, you would still think I should be rebaptized because some are outside your "historic Baptist framework". So rather than go into the details of my changed beliefs which may be misunderstood here, I provided your follow-on answers for you.

I have attended a SBC church for over 15 years and have witnessed many water baptisms. It is unusual if we don't have at least one water baptism every Sunday.

During the baptism part of the service, only two questions are asked by the minister performing the baptism.

1. Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord? Yes.

2. Have you committed to serve Him the rest of your life? Yes.

Next is "I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". As I recall, that is the same as when I was baptized in an other than Baptist church years ago.

In the thousands of water baptisms I have witnessed in our SBC church, I have never heard one performing the baptism ever ask the following type questions.

Do you believe in the SBC BF@M?
Do you agree with the beliefs of this church?
Are there any beliefs of this church that you do not agree with?
Do you have any beliefs that are in addition to the beliefs of this church?
Do you believe in the same beliefs as I do?

My point is that water baptism is based only on the salvation and commitment of the one being baptized. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward work; if it is based on the beliefs of the church or the one performing the baptism, then some of the above questions should be publically asked. Its validity has nothing to do with the church or the one performing the baptism.

This is my position which is different than yours, so let's just agree to disagree.

drfuss

 

[DHK]

drfuss: I too have changed my views over the years, but always within a Christian framework. Based on your "historic Baptist framework" rationale, I have no doubt you would think I should be rebaptized. Even though the modifications to my beliefs over the years have been minor and have no effect on my salvation or commitment, you would still think I should be rebaptized because some are outside your "historic Baptist framework". So rather than go into the details of my changed beliefs which may be misunderstood here, I provided your follow-on answers for you.

I have attended a SBC church for over 15 years and have witnessed many water baptisms. It is unusual if we don't have at least one water baptism every Sunday.

During the baptism part of the service, only two questions are asked by the minister performing the baptism.

1. Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord? Yes.

2. Have you committed to serve Him the rest of your life? Yes.

Next is "I baptise you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". As I recall, that is the same as when I was baptized in an other than Baptist church years ago.

In the thousands of water baptisms I have witnessed in our SBC church, I have never heard one performing the baptism ever ask the following type questions.

Do you believe in the SBC BF@M?
Do you agree with the beliefs of this church?
Are there any beliefs of this church that you do not agree with?
Do you have any beliefs that are in addition to the beliefs of this church?
Do you believe in the same beliefs as I do?

My point is that water baptism is based only on the salvation and commitment of the one being baptized. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward work; if it is based on the beliefs of the church or the one performing the baptism, then some of the above questions should be publically asked. Its validity has nothing to do with the church or the one performing the baptism.

This is my position which is different than yours, so let's just agree to disagree.

drfuss

" This is my position which is different than yours, so let's just agree to disagree."

Though this is directed to Tom, may I answer it for you.
I don't disagree with you. I looked at your profile. You are a Baptist. If you were to request membership in our church, you would meet with the pastor first. All that really needs to be done is a transfer of membership from one church to another. He, being satisfied with you being baptized and a member of a Baptist church would simply request a transfer of membership. There would be no need for another baptism.

We recently had two new members come to our church that way. One transferred their membership from another church in another area of the city. Another transferred her membership from her home church in China. Within two days of her arrival from China she looked up an IFB church in the phone book, was there at the mid-week prayer meeting and Bible Study service, and within a couple weeks was a member of our church. She is an outstanding Christian with a sweet spirit, dedicated to the Lord. Coming from Communist China the first thing on her mind was not recovering from jet lag, but finding an IFB church to fellowship with. Truly amazing. When we requested a transfer of membership, her pastor wanted to find out more about us. He wanted to make sure she was in the right church. That shepherd cared for his sheep, even though she was half way around the world.

 

[trustitl]

So with your tear drop reply to my first post, must mean that you think I am on the outside looking in. Sure glad you are not my judge. I been preaching for 35 years, almost 36 and will continue on as the Lord leads me. I been Pastor/Moderator of this one church for 19 years, Pastored the last one for 8, so I will continue on, thank you.

It saddens me to think that a preacher would find fault with a happy church, or are you a preacher??? man oh man!!!

If God's children can't be happy, then who can, those who follow Satan??

BBob,

So according to the elementary logic you used to come to your conclusion, I am a follower of Satan?

Why is it you concluded that I say you are an outsider looking in? Could it not be that I am approaching you as a brother asking you to consider your views? I see nothing I said that implies I regard you as a reprobate. I will readily admit that I think your views on baptism as a tool for determining church membership and some other issues are flawed. However, I sense that you love Jesus and want to serve Him. That, you and I have in common and it is from there that I approach you.

Your statement that you have been a pastor for 35 years and your congregation is happy is meaningless. Will you not agree that most lost people sitting in pews are perfectly happy? I will judge you upon your words and the truth contained therein. (And by the way, I am not saying that the people in your pews are lost, lest you use the same logic as before and jump to that conclusion. I am merely pointing out that our happiness is not a good indicator of the soundness of our doctrine.)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dryfuss:
"My point is that water baptism is based only on the salvation and commitment of the one being baptized. Water baptism is an outward sign of an inward work; if it is based on the beliefs of the church or the one performing the baptism, then some of the above questions should be publically asked. Its validity has nothing to do with the church or the one performing the baptism."

GE:
Water baptism is NOT based on salvation; it is based on presumpteousness, assuming and works-righteousness.

Water baptism is NO sign of the inward work of the Holy Spirit; Faith exclusively is that.

Water baptism is in fact based on the beliefs of the church and the those who perform it. Its validity no longer applies to the church - it used to be a sign and seal of Apostolic appointment, authority and authenticity. The baptism of churches do not have or show that authenticity or genuinness; it's a fake.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Water baptism is a fake preached, practiced and performed by imposter - people who pretend to be Apostles.

 

[Brother Bob]

Without the water baptism, I would of never felt complete, for it was my way of confessing my Lord before all men, and showing His death, burial and resurrection. It is not a fake.

Act 10:47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Water baptism to the Gentile.

BBob,

 

[Tom Butler]

" This is my position which is different than yours, so let's just agree to disagree."

Though this is directed to Tom, may I answer it for you.
I don't disagree with you. I looked at your profile. You are a Baptist. If you were to request membership in our church, you would meet with the pastor first. All that really needs to be done is a transfer of membership from one church to another. He, being satisfied with you being baptized and a member of a Baptist church would simply request a transfer of membership. There would be no need for another baptism.

We recently had two new members come to our church that way. One transferred their membership from another church in another area of the city. Another transferred her membership from her home church in China. Within two days of her arrival from China she looked up an IFB church in the phone book, was there at the mid-week prayer meeting and Bible Study service, and within a couple weeks was a member of our church. She is an outstanding Christian with a sweet spirit, dedicated to the Lord. Coming from Communist China the first thing on her mind was not recovering from jet lag, but finding an IFB church to fellowship with. Truly amazing. When we requested a transfer of membership, her pastor wanted to find out more about us. He wanted to make sure she was in the right church. That shepherd cared for his sheep, even though she was half way around the world.

DHK's reply is close to what I would have answered, particularly the first paragraph.

I don't think it's absolutely necessary that a candidate for membership agree 100% with a church's doctrinal statement. I do think that those doctrines which, taken together, identify a Baptist, are important and should be agreed to. With other aspects, such as how the church operates, committee structure, worship style, my question to the candidate would be, knowing what we believe and how we operate, do you still wish to covenant together with us?

I don't think a church can ever hope to get 100% agreement from a candidate for membership. Shoot, even our own members don't give 100% agreement. Goodness, even i don't agree with everything. But I can still freely and enthusiastically fellowship with, worship with, work with my fellow members.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The "deceived person" may never wake up so to speak.
For example, the Church of Christ pastor believes in baptismal regeneration--baptism is necessary for salvation. No matter what you say he will not budge on that position. We may say that he is indoctrinated or deliberately deceived.
Thus the question is, What happens when a new believer is baptized by such a person. Is his baptism Scriptural? I say no. The new believer needs to wake up and see that in error he was baptized by a religious person tenaciously clinging to false doctrine that he will not let go. Pray that he may not be indoctrinated into such a way, but rather see the truth and get involved in a Biblical church and be discipled Biblically while his mind is still open to the Bible.

HP: Do you count out of the kingdom those that are deceived in the manner you are speaking about? Will there be any of those deceived Catholics or Church of Christ individuals in heaven? Will there be any that either of these groups have baptized make it in?

If it will not keep one out of the kingdom to either be the dunker or the dunkee, deceived or not deceived, could it be that we might be laying more stress on who does the dunking or even baptism itself than we should? Could it be that God lays more import on the individual’s heart than the other issues here at stake?

By the way, is the church that TrustitL stated he belongs to deceived? Is their deception any worse than say that of a Catholic or a Church of Christ person? What do you see as the penalty so to spoeak of deception? Is there any chance deception could cost one their soul? If not, what does it cost?

 

[Tom Butler]

Earlier in this thread, at post #80 I posted a list of types of people and asked if anyone would submit to baptism by any one them. So far, no one has said yes, but that's because most BBers on this thread haven't answered at all. In practice, I suspect most Baptist churches would say no. Part of the reason is that most of the types I mentioned aren't even Chiristians, much less Baptists.

And that brings me to my rationale for exercising discretion and dicernment regarding baptism. Although some will, the large majority of Baptist church will not accept the baptism of another denomination because the fall short of the definition of a true New Testament Church. They are not churches at all. They are organizations, societies maybe, but not churches. All of them teach error in some fashion or another.

For some it is works salvation. For some it is sacramental baptism and the Lord's Supper. For some it is the un-security of the believer. For some it is an unbilblical view and practice of baptism--sacramental, infant baptism, sprinkling, pouring.

To accept their baptism is to accept them as true churches.

This is not a judgment of the salvation. Many believers are in these groups. This is an assessment of their status as NT churches.

 

[DHK]

HP: Do you count out of the kingdom those that are deceived in the manner you are speaking about? Will there be any of those deceived Catholics or Church of Christ individuals in heaven? Will there be any that either of these groups have baptized make it in?

Usually we speak in generalities. For example: "Those in the RCC will not go to heaven because the RCC preaches a false gospel."
But you have phrased your question in such a way that one would have to answer that in spite of their heretical beliefs some still may make it to heaven, though it may be very few.
For example: I was Catholic for twenty years. When a friend led me to the Lord, he was not a member of a church but of an interdenominational organization that put no importance on any specific church. I stayed within the Catholic Church for two years after I was saved. Thus I would have to say that I was a Catholic and saved at the same time. A new Christian doesn't automatically become a mature Christian when he is saved. It takes time to grow. I didn't leave the RCC right away. I wasn't baptized until two years later (and because of that fact the COC accuses me of being unsaved during that two year period--if I would have died then I would have gone to hell because I wasn't baptized, according to them).

However most Catholics (like the rest of my extended family) believe that the RCC is going to save them. They are saved because they are Catholics, have been baptized as Catholics, and for no other reason than that. They have a false hope. The RCC cannot get one into heaven; only Christ can.

There may be a person, who in spite of the COC's teaching that may be saved. But if they truly believe in COC doctrine it is impossible. Baptism doesn't save. They beleive it does. It is Christ that saves, and him alone. If works, such as baptism, is added to the work of Christ, then one does not have salvation. What they have is a false gospel and cannot be saved through that message. This is exactly what Paul was teaching the Galatians.

If it will not keep one out of the kingdom to either be the dunker or the dunkee, deceived or not deceived, could it be that we might be laying more stress on who does the dunking or even baptism itself than we should? Could it be that God lays more import on the individual’s heart than the other issues here at stake?

Baptism is a matter of obedience to the Lord. The Lord commanded it.
Now that I am saved, should I have just given my baptismal certificate (which I still posess) from the Catholic Church, to the pastor of the Baptist Church that I now attend and ask him to accept it. Why be baptized all over again? I already have a baptismal certificate from the RCC. After all the baptizer is not important, right? At what point do you draw the line?

By the way, is the church that TrustitL stated he belongs to deceived? Is their deception any worse than say that of a Catholic or a Church of Christ person? What do you see as the penalty so to spoeak of deception? Is there any chance deception could cost one their soul? If not, what does it cost?

I have no idea. Trustiti, according to his profile, belongs to a non-denominational church. I suppose Jim Jones did too. But then Bob Jones University is also non-denominational. Saying your non-denominational means nothing to me. I have no idea what his church believes.

All cults have been deceived, and that deception will indeed cost them their souls. It is sad but true.