1689Dave
Well-Known Member
They all say the same thing. It's all about self-salvation no matter how they try to mask it.
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Does it or did it make any difference to you?
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Because I don't do your work for you. If you can refute the articles I posted, do it.
But you can't even find the orig. articles?
I don't have a dog in the fight. I am fine leaving you in your ignorance.
How do you know? It appears you have yet to read the articles.
I do not have to refute them. Everyone on this board except you knows they are not the articles.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It's your dog in the fight. And you just killed it, tail tucked and all.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
All Arminians? Very few Calvinists?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Nothing like an enemy to dish the dirt. It makes more sense to read the opposition than those trying to promote their error.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you would like to display them against the articles I posted, you could put some teeth in your words. But it looks like you don't want to invest in it.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
Dave I don't think "self salvation" could be charged to Arminianism. Now Pelagianism yes. Maybe on the back end of Arminianism if you say that it's up to you to stay in the faith and not fall away - maybe then. But they would say all you need to do on your part is continue to ask God to help you and not deliberately turn away. That's not really self salvation. I might be missing your point though.
@Reynolds and @1689Dave
Here is a translation and some not so noteworthy yet noted notes which I share with you both.
(Note: All notes are added by me to help the reader discernment.)
Here is a translation and some not so noteworthy yet noted notes which I share with you both.
“Article 1
That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevering this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
(Note: Most Calvinists would agree with this statement)
Article 2
That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16: “God so love the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
(Note: My personal view is that the blood was for all sin, however the death and resurrection benefit only believers, typically neither Calvinist nor Arminian agree because (imo) they bind all the atonement into a single rather then seeing the parts as fulfilling different aspects of the original temple yearly offering of atonement.)
Article 3
That man has not saving grace himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself, neither thing, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5: “Without me ye can do nothing.”
(Note: This statement agrees with many Calvinist presentations.)
Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awaking, following and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But as respects the mode of the operation of this grace it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost (Acts 7:51), and elsewhere in many places.
(Note: I highlighted this portion, for in it I do not find consistency with the Scriptures: however, there are also Calvinistic thinkers who would agree with this statement)
Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life- giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ (Heb 3:6, 14; 2 Pet 1:10; Jude 3; 1 Tim 1:19; Heb 11:13), of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered to them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming void of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with full persuasion of our minds.
(Note: I see inconsistency in this article and consider that because my faith was authored by the creator, then He also has finished that work. It is not up to human kind to usurp the authority of God found in Romans 8.)
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary of edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
(End of translation)
That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ’s sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevering this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also.
(Note: Most Calvinists would agree with this statement)
Article 2
That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer according to the word of the Gospel of John 3:16: “God so love the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” And in the First Epistle of John 2:2: “And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
(Note: My personal view is that the blood was for all sin, however the death and resurrection benefit only believers, typically neither Calvinist nor Arminian agree because (imo) they bind all the atonement into a single rather then seeing the parts as fulfilling different aspects of the original temple yearly offering of atonement.)
Article 3
That man has not saving grace himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself, neither thing, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving Faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the Word of Christ, John 15:5: “Without me ye can do nothing.”
(Note: This statement agrees with many Calvinist presentations.)
Article 4
That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of all good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without prevenient or assisting, awaking, following and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But as respects the mode of the operation of this grace it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many, that they have resisted the Holy Ghost (Acts 7:51), and elsewhere in many places.
(Note: I highlighted this portion, for in it I do not find consistency with the Scriptures: however, there are also Calvinistic thinkers who would agree with this statement)
Article 5
That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life- giving Spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory; it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand, and if only they are ready for the conflict, and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled nor plucked out of Christ’s hands, according to the Word of Christ, John 10:28: “Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ (Heb 3:6, 14; 2 Pet 1:10; Jude 3; 1 Tim 1:19; Heb 11:13), of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered to them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming void of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scripture, before we ourselves can teach it with full persuasion of our minds.
(Note: I see inconsistency in this article and consider that because my faith was authored by the creator, then He also has finished that work. It is not up to human kind to usurp the authority of God found in Romans 8.)
These Articles, thus set forth and taught, the Remonstrants deem agreeable to the Word of God, tending to edification, and, as regards this argument, sufficient for salvation, so that it is not necessary of edifying to rise higher or to descend deeper.
(End of translation)
Philip Schaff and David S. Schaff, eds. The Creeds of Christendom (1931; repr., Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996), 3:545–49. This translation is in the public domain.”
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It's salvation by works, start to finish. Any time you see Free will, it is no different than Catholic salvation by works. Only the works have changed.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Universal atonement = salvation by works. It does not save one soul. They must save themselves through obedience.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If you cannot defend your position, why not save bandwidth and back out?
Letting you spout nonsense is the first step in defending my position. As long as you having a melt down and yapping endlessly, I won't interfere.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
But you are beating the air. Save your energy.
Universal atonement is a term Calvinists apply to Arminianism.
You having a front porch melt down?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Arminians apply it to themselves in their salvation scheme. It saves nobody.