Does it really matter if you're a Calvinist?

[webdog]

I haven't read Aaron's post nor that of GL.
My comment stems from the fact that it is very subtly insinuated that Calvinists may have been leading people astray all these centuries.
If Aaron said anything like that, I will put it as a reaction to the subtleties of this thread and some of its posters.

Since you did not read Aaron's posts how can you do that? That was yesterday, btw, so it could hot have been a reaction.

 

[glfredrick]

I think you must be misunderstanding what I wrote brother. I'm not attempting to say one is saved through correct doctrine (Calvinism/Arminianism), I'm saying that IF Arminians are wrong that we have done NO eternal harm because NO less people will be in heaven due to our error, after all all the elect will be effectually saved regardless of our teaching (if Calvinists are right).

If, however, Calvinists are wrong then their errors are much more severe because they COULD be distracting or influencing man's free will to come to Christ thus leading to less conversions.

The point is that Calvinists have much more to lose if they are wrong in this debate.

It is this sort of argument that almost proves that we Calvinists are correct. Do you think for a moment that an Almighty God, who admittedly, whether one "likes it or not" has caused to be written in His Word such a doctrine as election, would indeed let any perish who were destined for eternity merely because some human had his theology twisted? Paul's argument about preaching the gospel for impure motives seems to negate this entire track of argument...

 

[webdog]

It is this sort of argument that almost proves that we Calvinists are correct. Do you think for a moment that an Almighty God, who admittedly, whether one "likes it or not" has caused to be written in His Word such a doctrine as election, would indeed let any perish who were destined for eternity merely because some human had his theology twisted? Paul's argument about preaching the gospel for impure motives seems to negate this entire track of argument...

I don't think you are understanding his argument.

 

[glfredrick]

I'm not cal but to say calvinism originated from satan is heresy.

Someone has obviously been surfing IFB websites again... They are rampant with that sort of thinking. :thumbs:

 

[glfredrick]

Robert, why would you say this? Regardless of the mechanics leading to salvation, they are our brothers and knowing they share the same Spirit within, of course they rejoice!

I've taken you to task for other things so I'll also say thanks in public for a fair post!

 

[glfredrick]

I don't think you are understanding his argument.

I get the argument. Just don't agree with it.

 

[kyredneck]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1644851#post1644851

I know you're a busy feller Skandalon, tryin' to stamp out the evils of the Doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace and all, but don't forget my request here for you to explain your blatant contradiction. I believe you do indeed speak out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[Skandelon]

I don't think you are understanding his argument.

No, he is not. Neither is kyredneck apparently.

Let me try one more time.

1) IF Calvinism is correct and a certain number of preselected people will certainly be saved, THEN the error of Arminianism will have NO eternal effect because no less people will be saved due to the distraction and misinformation of our false teaching. (In short, if we are wrong we at least haven't prevented anyone of the elect from being saved)

BUT

2) IF Arminianism is correct and people are saved through their free ability to receive God's gift, THEN the error of Calvinism could have significant effect because it could dissuade and distract people from willingly coming to Christ. (In short, if you are wrong you may be responsible for distracting other believers with false teaching causing some not to hear and believe)

This is not an opinion. It is a fact based upon what each camp believes. There should be no disagreement here.

 

[Skandelon]

Did it cross your mind that a "blog" called "critiquing Calvinism" is very much responsible for the "distractions" you have condemned?????

Only if I'm wrong. And if I am wrong no less elect will be saved and only God's decree has been fulfilled, so what's the problem?

If I'm correct, then my blog serves to help people understand the false teachings of Calvinism so as not to allow it to become a distraction in their church and personal walk.

 

[pinoybaptist]

....If I'm correct, then my blog serves to help people understand the false teachings of Calvinism so as not to allow it to become a distraction in their church and personal walk.

Are you sure you are correct ?

 

[Skandelon]

No, no.

Arminians came AFTER Calvinists.

Back up a bit to the early church fathers. No record of any Church father conclusively supporting Calvinistic doctrine has been found. Augustine was the first to really expound such teachings. Even Calvinistic historians have affirmed this fact.

But, either way your argument misses the point I was making.

 

[glfredrick]

Back up a bit to the early church fathers. No record of any Church father conclusively supporting Calvinistic doctrine has been found. Augustine was the first to really expound such teachings. Even Calvinistic historians have affirmed this fact.

But, either way your argument misses the point I was making.

Of course, looking for anything resembling "Calvinism" would fail if one reads the early church fathers. They simply "assumed" God's sovereignty and the first several choices in opposition (in any sense) to that doctrine were declared heretical.

Gnosticism was perhaps the earliest, and we can see roots of this in the text of Scripture. metaphysical dualism was included, which as a matter of course denied the total sovereignty of God.

Then came Marcion, who in essence, declared that there was one god of the OT and one god of the NT, denying that the NT was a fulfillment of the OT. Thus, he denied the total sovereignty of God. He even denied that Jesus was God, and one cannot do that without impugning the sovereignty of God.

Adoptionism came next in line, and they too denied that Christ was God, preferring to say that He was indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Then came Sabellianism, which brought a modal existence to God.

Then the Montanists, the fathers of modern IFB cultural police...

Each of these instituted very human-driven responses to a sovereign God. Each was handled by the early Fathers. Each was declared heretical.

Should I go on?

 

[kyredneck]

No, he is not. Neither is kyredneck apparently.

Let me try one more time.

1) IF Calvinism is correct and a certain number of preselected people will certainly be saved, THEN the error of Arminianism will have NO eternal effect because no less people will be saved due to the distraction and misinformation of our false teaching. (In short, if we are wrong we at least haven't prevented anyone of the elect from being saved)

BUT

2) IF Arminianism is correct and people are saved through their free ability to receive God's gift, THEN the error of Calvinism could have significant effect because it could dissuade and distract people from willingly coming to Christ. (In short, if you are wrong you may be responsible for distracting other believers with false teaching causing some not to hear and believe)

This is not an opinion. It is a fact based upon what each camp believes. There should be no disagreement here.

I said:
“.....believe as Skandelon that correct head knowledge is what determines whether one will burn in hell for all eternity or not?”

Nothing you've posted has refuted my statement. You've only reinforced it.

 

[Skandelon]

I said:
“.....believe as Skandelon that correct head knowledge is what determines whether one will burn in hell for all eternity or not?”

Nothing you've posted has refuted my statement. You've only reinforced it.

That has nothing to do with what I've argued and any objective reader can judge that for themselves. I have never argued that mere "head knowledge" determines ones eternal destiny and the fact you think I have only reveals your lack of understanding, for which I cannot be responsible. Have good day.

 

[Skandelon]

Of course, looking for anything resembling "Calvinism" would fail if one reads the early church fathers. They simply "assumed" God's sovereignty and the first several choices in opposition (in any sense) to that doctrine were declared heretical.

That is an argument from silence and has no basis. The fact is there are several statements of the church fathers that appear to fly in the face of Calvinistic dogma.

 

[Skandelon]

In case someone is interested in some of those statements of Early Church Fathers, here are few:


“ Hoodwinking multitudes, [Marcus, the heretic] deceived many persons of this description who had become his disciples. He taught them that they were prone, no doubt, to sin. However, he said that they were beyond the reach of danger because they belonged to the perfect Power…”
-Hippolytus, 225 A.D.

“Certain ones of those [heretics] who hold different opinions misuse these passages. The essentially destroy free will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation and by introducing others as being saved in such a way that they cannot be lost”
-Origen, 225 A. D.

“Whoever that confessor is, he is not greater, better or dearer to God than Solomon. Solomon retained the grace that he had received from the Lord, as long as he walked in God’s ways. However, after he forsook the Lord’s ways, he also lost the Lord’s grace. For that reason it is written, “Hold fast that which you have, lest another take your crown.”. Assuredly, the Lord would not threaten that the crown of righteousness might be taken away if it were not that the crown must depart when righteousness departs…’He that endures to the end, the same will be saved.’ So, whatever comes before the end is a step, by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the finish, where the full result of the ascent is already gained”
-Cyprian, 250 A.D.


"We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life."
-Epistle of Barnabas, 70-100 A.D.

"The whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger...Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we fall asleep in our sins. For then, the wicked Prince, acquiring power over us, will thrust us away from the Kingdom of the Lord...And you should pay attention to this all the more, my brothers, when you reflect on and see that even after such great signs and wonders had been performed in Israel, they were still abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found to be, as it is written, the "many who are called", but not the "few who are chosen" -Barnabas, 70-100 A.D.


"Let us then practice righteousness, so that we may be saved unto the end."
-Second Epistle of Clement, 150 A.D.

" For the Lord has sworn by His Glory, in regard to His elect, that if any one of them sin after a certain day which he has fixed, he will not be saved"
-The Shepherd of Hermas, 150 A.D.

" I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the Mosaic Law, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death- you will by no means be saved"
-Justin Martyr, 160 A.D.

"…Rather, we should fear ourselves, lest perchance, after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but are shut out of His Kingdom. And for that reason, Paul said ‘For if God spared no the natural branches, take heed, lest He also spare not you’ “
-Irenaeus, 180 A.D.

“It was not those who are on the outside that he said these things, but to us-lest we should be cast forth from the Kingdom of God, by doing any such thing. “
-Irenaeus, 180 A.D.

“Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons.”
-Irenaeus, 180 A.D.

“God’s greatest gift is self-restraint. For He himself said ‘I will never leave you nor forsake you.’ as having judged you worthy according to the true election. Thus, then, while we attempt piously to advance, we will have put on us the mild yoke of the Lord ‘from faith to faith’, one charioteer driving each of us onward to salvation”
-Clement of Alexandria, 195 A.D.


“He who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome and narrow. So let him who has once received the gospel not turn back…and let him not go back to his former life, or to heresies.”
-Clement of Alexandria, 195 A.D.

“It is neither the faith, nor the hope, nor the love, nor the endurance of one day; rather, ‘he that endures to the end will be saved.’”
-Clement or Alexandria, 195 A.D.

“ So even in the case of one who has done the greatest good deeds in his life, but at the end has run headlong into wickedness, all his former pains are profitless to him. For at the climax of the drama, he has given up his part”
-Clement of Alexandria, 195 A.D.

“No one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end.”
-Tertullian, 197 A.D.

“The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins”
-Tertullian, 198 A.D.

“God had foreseen…that faith-even after baptism-would be endangered. He saw that most persons-after obtaining salvation-would be lost again, by soiling their wedding dress, by failing to provide oil for their torches”
-Tertullian, 213 A.D.

“A man may possess an acquired righteousness, from which it is possible to fall away”
-Origen, 225 A.D.

“Being a believing man, if you seek to live as the Gentiles do, the joys of the world remove you from the grace of Christ.”
-Commodianus, 240 A.D.

“ There remains more than what is yet seen to be accomplished. For it is written, ‘Praise not any man before his death’. And again, ‘Be faithful unto death, and I will give you a crown of life’. And the Lord also says, ‘He that endures to the end, the same will be saved’”
-Cyprian of Carthage, 240 A.D.

“ It is a small thing to have first received something. It is a greater thing to be able to keep what you have attained. Faith itself and the saving birth do not make alive by merely being received. Rather, they must be preserved. It is not the actual attainment, but the perfecting, that keeps a man for God. The Lord taught this in His instruction when He said, ‘Look! You have been made whole. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you’. Solomon, Saul, and many others were able to keep the grace given to them so long as they walked in the Lord’s ways. However, when the discipline of the Lord was forsaken by them, grace also forsook them.”
-Cyprian, 250 A.D.

“ I ask that you will grieve with me at the spiritual death of my sister. For in this time of devastation, she has fallen from Christ”
-Cyprian, 250 A.D.

“It is clear that the devil is driven out in baptism, by the faith of the believer. But he returns if the faith should afterwards fail.”
-Cyprian, 250 A.D.

“To anyone who is born and dies, is there not a necessity at some time…to suffer the loss of his estate? Only let not Christ be forsaken, so that the loss of salvation and of an eternal home would be feared.”
-Cyprian, 250 A.D.

“There is need of continual prayer and supplication so that we do not fall away from the heavenly kingdom, as the Jews fell away, to whom this promise had first been given.”
-Cyprian, 250 A.D.

“He says, ‘He that endures to the end, the same will be saved.’ And again He says, ‘if you continue in my word, you will truly be my disciples’. So there needs to be patience in order that hope and faith may attain their result.”
-Cyprian, 250 A.D.

“ As to one who again denies Christ, no special previous standing can be effective to him for salvation. For any one of us will hold it necessary that whatever is the last thing to be found in a man in this respect, that is where he will be judged. All of those things which he has previously done are wiped away and obliterated.”
-Anonymous treatise on re-baptism, 255 A.D.

 

[Robert Snow]

.... Then we kill them & roast them on a spit till the skin is crunchy. goes good with Gravy, mashed potatoes & corn bread. Otherwise we make these green chips called Soilet Green but I prefer the spit with veggies.

You sound like a Marine! :tongue3:

 

[pinoybaptist]

you are quoting from Church "Fathers" who, doctrine wise, may likely be compared to Chinese Christians who read their Scriptures and get their doctrines from three, four, five pages of Bibles they pass on to each other during their meetings about a decade ago before Tiananmen and the roads it opened up for complete Bibles.

Remember that the first complete and written Bible was by John Wycliffe in the 1300's and the first complete and printed one was in the 1400's.

 

[quantumfaith]

you are quoting from Church "Fathers" who, doctrine wise, may likely be compared to Chinese Christians who read their Scriptures and get their doctrines from three, four, five pages of Bibles they pass on to each other during their meetings about a decade ago before Tiananmen and the roads it opened up for complete Bibles.

Remember that the first complete and written Bible was by John Wycliffe in the 1300's and the first complete and printed one was in the 1400's.

Was it not through some of these "early church fathers" and the leadership of the Holy Spirit that we have the canon of scripture, to which Wycliffe could then complete?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Was it not through some of these "early church fathers" and the leadership of the Holy Spirit that we have the canon of scripture, to which Wycliffe could then complete?

"some" is a good word.