Does it take grace to "like" Romans 9?

[Dale-c]

Web,
Ok, so you say it is all about Israel.
So you believe that Israel alone will be saved?
What about the rest of the world?
What about Pharaoh?
Was he Israel or an individual?

 

[webdog]

Ok, so you say it is all about Israel.
So you believe that Israel alone will be saved?
What about the rest of the world?

Scripture says they will, but makes no mention of gentiles coming to Christ during the tribulation. I would like to think they can, but Scripture is silent.

What about Pharaoh?
Was he Israel or an individual?

Egypt still has a pharaoh
Where was Pharaoh ever called Israel

 

[Revmitchell]

Romans 9-11 God's plan for Israel?


That is the first I have ever heard anyone espouse that. Paul is speaking to Jews still trying to get it out of their heads that salvation is by grace of God and not by external sources. Taking the book as a whole there is a comparison made between the gentiles and Israel. Each fall under the grace of God.:godisgood:

 

[Rippon]

The following is from Duncan Culver's "Systematic Theology" , pages 680,681 .

2. Also , some Arminians and Wesleyans say divine elction relates not to individuals but to national preference , to Israel per se as represented by 'Jacob I loved' , etc., in Romans 9:6-13 ... I judge their lengthy arguments all crash on Paul's plain statements in Romans 9 that 1) the elction stands not of works but of God who calls ( v.11 ) -- not applicable to a nation per se and 2) that ( v. 16 KJV , cf. ESV margin ) election 'is not of him [ a person , emphasis added ] that willeth , nor of him [ a person ] that runneth' . The people of a nation usually have not one will ( or opinion ) but many ; nor do they expend effort in 'running' . National will is never one but of several opinions or wills nor the effort of 'running' ( Gr. trecho. fig. 'exert oneself to the limits of one's powers in an attempt to go forward , to strive to advance' Romans 1:16) . The emphasis is is entirely upon the effort that a person makes .

 

[Dale-c]

Where was Pharaoh ever called Israel

That is what I am asking you!
God hardened Pharaoh.
Explain that in your all "about Israel only" approach.

Pharaoh was an individual. God hardened him individually for His own glory.

 

[David Lamb]

That would depend on their eschatalogical view, wouldn't it?

That's what I would have said. But in your earlier post you seemed (to me) to be saying that Romans 9 is about national Israel, and that Calvinists are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole by believing otherwise. That is what prompted my question, but it seems I have misunderstood you in some way (my fault, I am sure - sorry).

 

[webdog]

Romans 9-11 God's plan for Israel?


That is the first I have ever heard anyone espouse that. Paul is speaking to Jews still trying to get it out of their heads that salvation is by grace of God and not by external sources. Taking the book as a whole there is a comparison made between the gentiles and Israel. Each fall under the grace of God.:godisgood:

As a pastor, how can this be the first time coming across this

Chapter 9 deals with Israel past, chapter 10 Israel present, and chapter 11 Israel future (the "jewish problem", the "jewish problem" and God's plan, the "jewish problem" and God's solution.) The problem the jews had is...if Jesus were the Messiah, God's promise to Israel had failed. Paul addresses this in great detail.

 

[webdog]

That is what I am asking you!
God hardened Pharaoh.
Explain that in your all "about Israel only" approach.

Pharaoh was an individual. God hardened him individually for His own glory.

I'm not understanding your non sequitur or red herring, take your pick....

 

[Dale-c]

I'm not understanding your non sequitur or red herring, take your pick....

I am saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
That is an obvious reference to God's sovereign choice.
How do you reconcile that with your free will doctrine?

 

[webdog]

I am saying that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
That is an obvious reference to God's sovereign choice.
How do you reconcile that with your free will doctrine?

You've been here a while. We have discussed that in depth before, I'm sure. Pharaoh is not the context of Romans 9.

Search is your friend

 

[Revmitchell]

As a pastor, how can this be the first time coming across this

Chapter 9 deals with Israel past, chapter 10 Israel present, and chapter 11 Israel future (the "jewish problem", the "jewish problem" and God's plan, the "jewish problem" and God's solution.) The problem the jews had is...if Jesus were the Messiah, God's promise to Israel had failed. Paul addresses this in great detail.

Simple. The book needs to be taken as a whole. It is not about the nation of Israel. It is about the grace of God and what it is that justifies. And in ch 11 Paul speaks to both Jews and gentiles.

 

[Amy.G]

Does it take grace to like Romans?

I think it takes grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer to like any of the Bible.

I love God's word. Even the hard parts. But only after I was saved.

 

[webdog]

Simple. The book needs to be taken as a whole. It is not about the nation of Israel. It is about the grace of God and what it is that justifies. And in ch 11 Paul speaks to both Jews and gentiles.

The book as a whole is dealing with soteriology to a church that was mixed with both jew and gentile. Paul steps back for a minute to address his "brothers", not in Christ but through heritage in 9 - 11.

Here's a pretty accurate outline...

I. Paul introduces the letter. 1:1-15
A. He salutes them. 1:1-7
B. He makes personal remarks. 1:8-15
II. The gospel is God's power to save everyone who believes. 1:16 - 11:56
A. The proposition is stated. 1:16-17
B. All need the saving power of the gospel. 1:18 - 5:21

1. The Gentiles need it. 1:18-32
2. The Jews need it. 2:1 - 3:19
3. The law will not justify; therefore, all need the gospel. 3:20-23
​

C. All are justified by faith apart from the law. 3:24 - 7:25

1. The proposition is stated. 3:24-31
2. Old Testament proofs are given. 4:1-25
3. Life through Christ is as universal as death through Adam. 5:1-21
4. Objections are answered. 6:1 - 7:25
a. Justification by faith apart from the law does not encourage sin but frees from it. 6:1 - 7:6
b. The law is not evil, but its purpose was not to give righteousness. 7:7-25
​

D. There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ. 8:1-39
E. What is the relationship of Israel to the gospel? 9:1 - 11:36

1. The rejection of the Jews was not complete. 9:1-33
2. The rejection of the Jews was not arbitrary. 10:1-21
3. The rejection of the Jews was not final. 11:1-36
​

III. How should all live in Christ? 12:1 - 15:21
A. All Christians are to be transformed in life. 12:1-21
B. All Christians are to be subject to civil government. 13:1-7
C. All Christians are to love each other. 13:8-10
D. All Christians are to walk in light. 13:11-14
E. All Christians are to respect each other's conscience. 14:1 - 15:4
F. All Christians are to receive each other. 15:5-21
IV. Paul concludes. 15:22 - 16:27
A. He reveals his plans. 15:22-33
B. He tells them to receive Phoebe. 16:1-2
C. He gives salutations to Roman saints. 16:3-16
D. He warns against heretics. 16:17-20
E. Paul's companions send salutations. 16:21-24
F. He praises God. 16:25-27

 

[Revmitchell]

The book as a whole is dealing with soteriology to a church that was mixed with both jew and gentile. Paul steps back for a minute to address his "brothers", not in Christ but through heritage in 9 - 11.

Here's a pretty accurate outline...

I. Paul introduces the letter. 1:1-15
A. He salutes them. 1:1-7
B. He makes personal remarks. 1:8-15
II. The gospel is God's power to save everyone who believes. 1:16 - 11:56
A. The proposition is stated. 1:16-17
B. All need the saving power of the gospel. 1:18 - 5:21

1. The Gentiles need it. 1:18-32
2. The Jews need it. 2:1 - 3:19
3. The law will not justify; therefore, all need the gospel. 3:20-23
​

C. All are justified by faith apart from the law. 3:24 - 7:25

1. The proposition is stated. 3:24-31
2. Old Testament proofs are given. 4:1-25
3. Life through Christ is as universal as death through Adam. 5:1-21
4. Objections are answered. 6:1 - 7:25
a. Justification by faith apart from the law does not encourage sin but frees from it. 6:1 - 7:6
b. The law is not evil, but its purpose was not to give righteousness. 7:7-25
​

D. There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ. 8:1-39
E. What is the relationship of Israel to the gospel? 9:1 - 11:36

1. The rejection of the Jews was not complete. 9:1-33
2. The rejection of the Jews was not arbitrary. 10:1-21
3. The rejection of the Jews was not final. 11:1-36
​

III. How should all live in Christ? 12:1 - 15:21
A. All Christians are to be transformed in life. 12:1-21
B. All Christians are to be subject to civil government. 13:1-7
C. All Christians are to love each other. 13:8-10
D. All Christians are to walk in light. 13:11-14
E. All Christians are to respect each other's conscience. 14:1 - 15:4
F. All Christians are to receive each other. 15:5-21
IV. Paul concludes. 15:22 - 16:27
A. He reveals his plans. 15:22-33
B. He tells them to receive Phoebe. 16:1-2
C. He gives salutations to Roman saints. 16:3-16
D. He warns against heretics. 16:17-20
E. Paul's companions send salutations. 16:21-24
F. He praises God. 16:25-27

Great outline. Its not about the nation of Israel.

 

[webdog]

Great outline. Its not about the nation of Israel.

Why...because you say so? Did you even see "E"?

E. What is the relationship of Israel to the gospel? 9:1 - 11:36

1. The rejection of the Jews was not complete. 9:1-33
2. The rejection of the Jews was not arbitrary. 10:1-21
3. The rejection of the Jews was not final. 11:1-36

Fact is...chapters 9 - 11 ARE about Israel!
​

 

[Revmitchell]

Why...because you say so? Did you even see "E"?

E. What is the relationship of Israel to the gospel? 9:1 - 11:36

1. The rejection of the Jews was not complete. 9:1-33
2. The rejection of the Jews was not arbitrary. 10:1-21
3. The rejection of the Jews was not final. 11:1-36

Fact is...chapters 9 - 11 ARE about Israel!
​

And yet you over look the passages Paul adresses the Gentile in the midst of the Passages.

 

[webdog]

And yet you over look the passages Paul adresses the Gentile in the midst of the Passages.

Irrelevant. Those chapters as a whole deal with Israel.

 

[Revmitchell]

Irrelevant. Those chapters as a whole deal with Israel.

The book as a whole deals with grace.

 

[Dale-c]

Irrelevant. Those chapters as a whole deal with Israel.

Irrelevant?
Then why is it there? It is very relevant.

 

[webdog]

The book as a whole deals with grace.

And? Chapters 9 - 11 deal with Israel.