Does man have a voluntary will?

skypair,

re: "We CAN consciously choose..."

Perhaps you can help me, then. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be implying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Mabe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is "a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron." So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

 

MB,

re: "I still don't believe in Leprechauns."

So then you are like me - not able to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. Hopefully skypair will be able to help us.

 

You appear to have a problem with knowing how you "consciously choose the beliefs you have." I'm certain, to begin with, that you are not saying that you therefore SUBconsciously choose your beliefs, right? as in your beliefs come from your dreams?

So I would submit that first you are conscious -- in a alert state of mind.

Next, I would submit that your ability to make choices comes from your conscIENCE. Notice how conscious and conscience are related. The "conscience" or soul gives you God's side and self's side on every decision. If you were to choose God's side and obey the gospel, for instance, you would be saved. If you would choose God's side and do a good deed, you would be "justified" (good) in your action but it is only by obeying God's command to repent and receive that you receive eternal life. Other good decisions will either be rewarded at the Bema or ameliorate your punishment after the GWT.

First you knowwhat "a more compassionate person" is -- "test" it with God's truth/scripture and obey (start practicing it). Faith comes, then, when we see "fruit" of our efforts. Realization that we have followed a faulty notion comes when we fail to achieve what God says we will accomplish.

Example: I believed that the Republicans would win this last election. Obviously, I didn't get that from God and it flopped! :laugh: Faulty choice -- unrequited faith -- false belief.

Or when I was saved "at the last minute." I guess you call it the "last minute" because you think there is a point at which I changed my mind another way. Yeah. I had enough new information to "change my state of beleif to another."

So you presume that the belief that ANYONE can be a more "compassionate person" is an fantasy? like a leprechaun?

No. Why would you say that? Did you try to make yourself into something ("sompassionate person") that didn't exist? Then you WOULD be in trouble -- like trying to become a true "Calvinist Christian." :laugh: There's a basic internal contradiction there that makes that ideal impossible.

skypair

 

Please validate this philosophical view from scripture to us less studied individuals that shows us some type of foundation by which to evaluate such a comment.

 

skypair,

re: "I'm certain, to begin with, that you are not saying that you therefore SUBconsciously choose your beliefs..."

I didn’t say that, but I would guess that that is how I very well may have come about the beliefs that I have - through some subconscious process taking place in my brain as a result of being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, etc. But there has never been any CONSCIOUS CHOOSING involved with the actual engendering of the belief itself.

As for the rest of your comments, I’m afraid that I don’t understand what you are saying with regard to my query about your stated ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. I asked you to demonstrate that ability, but so far I don’t see where you have done that.

 

Allan,

re: "Please validate this philosophical view from scripture to us less studied individuals that shows us some type of foundation by which to evaluate such a comment."

My foundation for making the statement is that since I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE my beliefs, and since I have never seen anyone else demonstrate an ability, I assumed that it cannot be done. However, I may be wrong (I sincerely hope that I am) because a number of people on these boards seem to say that they do have that ability.

 

MB,

re: "I didn't say I couldn't believe in Leprechauns, I said that I didn't believe in Leprechauns. You didn't offer any proof of your claim. "

I made no claim with regard to Leprechauns.

Also, if beliefs can simply be consciously CHOSEN, then proof or evidence should not be necessary. But even if it were, how would you know when you had it? What would be the indicator that would allow you to say: "Okay, I have obtained rational justification for the existence of "X" and while I still do not believe that "X" exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that "X" exists and - poof - I now believe that "X" exists?

 

MB,

re: "I would be convinced...Being convinced is believing and being convinced isn't my doing but God's doing..."

So, at least in this particular case, you didn’t consciously CHOOSE a belief. The belief was placed in your mind by the supreme being.

re: "How do you suppose you ever came to believe?"

I addressed that in my post #127.

 

So you have NO scriptural authority by which have concluded this matter. It is done on what you feel and assumed is the most correct. This is called Philosophy.
Though philosophy is not a bad thing it is a bad "foundation" for any beleif.

 

Allan,

re: "So you have NO scriptural authority by which you have concluded this matter. It is done on what you feel and assumed is the most correct."

It is done on the hard fact that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of my beliefs. It is done on the hard fact that I have never seen anyone else demonstrate an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. But as I said, maybe there are those who CAN consciously CHOOSE their beliefs. Maybe it is possible. I hope so, because if I can find one, they may be able to explain to me how they do it.

Are you saying that because scripture doesn’t say that it is impossible to consciously CHOOSE to believe things, that I can’t make an initial statement based on the hard facts of my experience?

re: "This is called Philosophy. Though philosophy is not a bad thing it is a bad ‘foundation’ for any belief."

We’re going to have to disagree on that one. Experience is definitely a rational foundation for what one thinks about something.

 

Well, here you may be talking about the witness of God in your soul/conscience that attested to what you were hearing. That is common. Most people don't know what their soul is or what it does until some issue of good vs. bad comes up -- as in sin and death vs. light and life. Then they recognize that somewhere inside, they "heard" this same "gospel" before in other terms/ways.

Is that it? Or is it that you don't take responsibility for understanding like you don't take responsibility for choosing? You do apply logic and experience to what you hear, right? You do sort of use the "scientific method" of gathering info, applying the relevant facts, and then making a choice, don't you? That is conscious decision making.

skypair

 

skypair,

re: "Is that it?"

Yes it is, absolutely . And I would still like to see you demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.


re: "You do sort of use the ‘scientific method’ of gathering info, applying the relevant facts, and then making a choice, don't you?"

Perhaps, but it is not a conscious choice.

 

Would you say it is "instinctual" then? That you only choose like lower forms of animals do?

Or do people look at you and say, "That guys unconscious!" as if you make all the right decisions with none of the facts?

skypair

 

skypair,

re: "Would you say it is ‘instinctual’ then?"

I don’t know. But like I said earlier, I would venture a guess that any new beliefs that rise to a level of conscious realization may very well have come about- through some subconscious process taking place in my brain as a result of being subjected to outside stimuli, such as literature, lectures, media, conversation, etc.


re: "That you only choose like lower forms of animals do?"

I’m not sure how you know how lower forms of animals CHOOSE to believe things - to be convinced without any doubt that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true.


re: "Or do people look at you and say, "That guys unconscious!..."

I don’t think that I have ever heard anyone say that about me. Of course if I were unconscious, I wouldn’t know what was being said.


Oh, and I would still like to see you demonstrate your implied ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

 

MB,


re: "So your claim is that you just automatically believed whether you wanted to or not. No choice."

My claim is that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, e.g. , that my parents loved me, that the print and broadcast media is mostly liberal, that the earth orbits the sun, that the Ford Ranger is more reliable than the Chevy S10, that chili shouldn’t have beans in it, that leprechauns do not exist, that scripture doesn’t teach eternal torment, that doctrine outside of scripture is invalid, that U.S. border security should be improved, etc.

re: "... what scriptural support do you have for this automatic belief?"

I’m not aware of any scripture that deals with subconscious processes regarding the engendering of beliefs. The only support that I have is the fact that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of my beliefs, and that I have never seen anyone else demonstrate an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

re: "Do you believe that your belief is what saved you?"

That is indeed one of the Biblical requirements for salvation.