Does man have a voluntary will?

[MB]

MB,


re: "So your claim is that you just automatically believed whether you wanted to or not. No choice."

My claim is that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have, e.g. , that my parents loved me, that the print and broadcast media is mostly liberal, that the earth orbits the sun, that the Ford Ranger is more reliable than the Chevy S10, that chili shouldn’t have beans in it, that leprechauns do not exist, that scripture doesn’t teach eternal torment, that doctrine outside of scripture is invalid, that U.S. border security should be improved, etc.

Did some one make you believe that which is stated above in bold?
Since the doctrine that teaches we are regenerated before Salvation isn't in scripture nor is the concept of it. Why do you believe it?

re: "... what scriptural support do you have for this automatic belief?"

I’m not aware of any scripture that deals with subconscious processes regarding the engendering of beliefs. The only support that I have is the fact that I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of my beliefs, and that I have never seen anyone else demonstrate an ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things.

No one in your life has ever convinced you of anything?
This below is a story I'm sure you may be familar with but pay particular attention to the last verse.
Joh 8:1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
Joh 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
Joh 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
Joh 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Joh 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
Joh 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
Joh 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Joh 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

None of these men threw a stone they were all convicted of there own conscience. The fact that, not one of them were with out sin meant they were not righteous enough to judge this woman. The words of Christ saying, "He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone"

You will notice the last verse says they were convicted of there own consceince, not subconsceince. To be convicted, is being convinced, we are sinners a fact these men had over looked. Being convicted they came to believe them selves that they were not righteous enough to Judge her. A decision to believe they were not righteous enough. and it was a consceince decision they could have just as easily went ahead and stoned the woman. Because of there own sin they realized they weren't any better than she was.

re: "Do you believe that your belief is what saved you?"

That is indeed one of the Biblical requirements for salvation.

Your right it is a biblical requirement and it is your decision because of being convicted and convinced. Just like these men were by your own consceince.
MB

 

[rstrats]

MB,

re: "Did some one make you believe that which is stated above in bold?"

As I’ve stated several times, I do not KNOW the cause of the beliefs that I have. I can only speculate as to what may have brought them around.

re: "Since the doctrine that teaches we are regenerated before Salvation isn't in scripture nor is the concept of it. Why do you believe it?"

As far as I know, I don’t. Have I written something that suggests that I do?

re: "No one in your life has ever convinced you of anything?"

I would guess that they have.

re: "You will notice the last verse says they were convicted of there own consceince, not subconsceince.

I had never heard the term "subconsceince" before reading your post. From where are you getting the word? Also, I don’t see the connection between being "convicted of there own consceince" and the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe something.

re: "Your right it is a biblical requirement and it is your decision because of being convicted and convinced."

To what decision are you referring ?

 

[skypair]

rstrats,

What you seem to be saying is that you believe what makes sense to you -- what is "logical."

In the presentation of various sides of an issue, did you decide that some made sense and some didn't?

What you did was choose the input to your decision by consiouusly evaluating the options/premises, right? There are people who believe just the opposite as you who chose to believe the opposite premises. You say the press is liberal -- they say conservative. To present your case, you offer the premises that make sense logically, consciously to you just as you have here. But if your premises and beliefs are wrong, God depends on other believers to show you the right where you can logically, consciously reconcile your beliefs to what's true.

skypair

 

[MB]

MB,

re: "Did some one make you believe that which is stated above in bold?"

As I’ve stated several times, I do not KNOW the cause of the beliefs that I have. I can only speculate as to what may have brought them around.

What I have been saying is that being convinced is what makes us all believe what ever we believe.
A salesmanconvinces you your getting a good deal you therefore believe it is a good deal at which time you are placing your faith in the salesman that what he has told you is true.

re: "Since the doctrine that teaches we are regenerated before Salvation isn't in scripture nor is the concept of it. Why do you believe it?"

As far as I know, I don’t. Have I written something that suggests that I do

You may not have but I may have thought you did I'm sorry for that.

re: "No one in your life has ever convinced you of anything?"

I would guess that they have.

That convincing you is what made you have faith in what you believed.

re: "You will notice the last verse says they were convicted of there own consceince, not subconsceince.

I had never heard the term "subconsceince" before reading your post. From where are you getting the word?

I meant subconscious Not subconsceince. My mistake.:laugh: I'm laughing at myself.

Also, I don’t see the connection between being "convicted of there own consceince" and the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe something.

Because of there shame of them not being any better than the woman was, they were judging. They came to believe they were wrong and left.

re: "Your right it is a biblical requirement and it is your decision because of being convicted and convinced."

To what decision are you referring ?

I asked;
do you believe that your belief is what saved you?
You replied;

That is indeed one of the requirements of Salvation

I said you were right.
MB