You are entirely wrong winman. Multitudes did come to Jesus for healing. But that has nothing to do with the doctrine of drawing which is taught in John 6. Many of the sick Jesus healed were never drawn to him. You have put your particular winman spin on the Word of God.
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Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?
- Thread starter Skandelon
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You are entirely wrong winman. Multitudes did come to Jesus for healing. But that has nothing to do with the doctrine of drawing which is taught in John 6. Many of the sick Jesus healed were never drawn to him. You have put your particular winman spin on the Word of God.
I didn't spin a thing, a child could understand the scripture I showed. It said multitudes when they had HEARD of Jesus and the great things he did, CAME to him. It is exactly what John 6:45 teaches, that men who have heard and learned, and have been taught by the Father come to him.
Mar 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.
33 But the woman fearing and trembling, knowing what was done in her, came and fell down before him, and told him all the truth.
34 And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Why did the woman with an issue of blood come to Jesus? Because she had HEARD of him. It was KNOWLEDGE that caused her to come to Jesus. It doesn't say she was supernaturally zapped as Calvinism falsely teaches.
And why did she believe she would be healed if she touched Jesus? For the same reason, she had HEARD that Jesus healed all who came to him. It was hearing of Jesus that caused her to believe, that gave her faith if she but touched him she would be healed.
It is not I that perverts and distorts what the scriptures teach, I am showing EXACTLY what the scriptures say. A child could easily understand.
But you will not hear even if I show you a hundred scriptures that all agree.
No, winman,you are wrong. In John 6 it teaches that every single one who is drawn by the Father and given to Jesus comes --no exceptions whatsoever. But with respect to the healings that Jesus performed many of the recipients were not in union with the Lord. Consider the consider the case of the ten men who had leprosy in Luke 17. All ten were healed, but only one came back to praise God and joyfully thank Him. Only one out of 10 was saved. Therefore a majority of the healed in that situation were not united with Christ and certainly not drawn as John 6 teaches. Remember in John 6 there are no exceptions at all. Every single one that the Father draws is given to Jesus. That's not the case with the healing ministry of Jesus --you are not supporting your position. It's a lost cause for you winman --you lose.
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Your first error is saying that everyone that is drawn comes to Jesus. This is EASY to refute from much scripture.
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
Jesus compared the kingdom of heaven to a king who made a wedding for his son. This of course represents the Father and Jesus the Son.
Many people were called and bidden to come to the wedding but refused. So again, the king sent out his servants to tell them which are bidden to come to the marriage, but they made light of it and went their ways.
I could show much more, but this easily refutes Calvinism's false teaching that everyone who is drawn comes. But you will refuse to listen to scripture.
Second, the lepers were all healed, so the lepers all had faith. Just as many people get saved like the stony and thorny ground, but get distracted by the world or fall away in persecution and never bare fruit, nine of the lepers went their way. Nevertheless, they were healed which represents being saved, being regenerated.
The tenth leper was like the good soil in the parable of the sower, who kept God's word and bare much fruit. These are persons who are thankful and grateful for what God has done for them and serve out of gratitude and love. These persons will bring many others to Christ (bare fruit).
You do not understand scripture well at all.
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ALL who are his sheep shall hear His voice, shall know he is the Son of God, and believeing unto him, have life in his name!
can you show any NT passage that tells us that one whom the Lord said was to come unto him refused to receive him as their Lord and savior?
I agree that Jesus's sheep shall hear his voice. These are persons whom God in his foreknowledge saw would believe in time. God foresaw these persons "in him" in time, and chose them before the foundation of the world. God gave these persons in time to Jesus. These are Jesus's sheep.
This is why Jesus said to those who would not believe, "Ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep". Jesus knew who would believe and who would not believe "from the beginning".
Jhn 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Jesus chose 11 of the disciples because he knew they would believe. He chose Judas because he knew he would not believe, and would betray him to bring about God's purpose that Jesus go to the cross and die for us.
Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
This is foreknowledge of faith being clearly shown in scripture. Jesus said "and ONE of you is a devil". He knew the other 11 were true believers and would serve him all their lives, giving their life for the gospel. That is why he chose them. He knew Judas would betray him.
Foreknowledge of faith is shown over and over again in scripture, but Calvinism denies this scriptural truth that God chooses those whom he foresaw would believe.
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Except that the NT is full of passages that God chose them first, that ONLY His sheep would be granted ears to hear with saying that salvation is due to will of God, God opened their hearts/mind etc!
Why then did you forget to show all this scripture the NT is full of?
You would lose every case if you were a lawyer.
Is there any Calvinist on this board who can tell us why God did not use irresistible grace on Thomas?
John20:25 - "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."
The Invitation - "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
The Confession - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
The Reason Jesus gives for Thomas' Faith - "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
John20:25 - "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."
The Invitation - "Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
The Confession - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
The Reason Jesus gives for Thomas' Faith - "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
All Scripture Citations Are From The NIV
You act chilish at times on the BB winman. But you need to believe in the Word of God like a child. For the Word of God says in John 6:
37:All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
39: And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
44: no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45b : Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
65b : This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.
The above is authoritative --it is the Word of God. Listen and yield to it.
The other nine were indeed physically healed, but they did not hear those particular words from the mouth of Jesus. They were not saved --but the Samaritan was not only physically healed but his soul was also healed --hence he received salvation.
Bow on your knees or use any other posture you desire --but for you to deny that everyone drawn comes to Jesus is doing violence to the Word of God.
You act chilish at times on the BB winman. But you need to believe in the Word of God like a child. For the Word of God says in John 6:
37:All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
39: And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
44: no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
45b : Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
65b : This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.
The above is authoritative --it is the Word of God. Listen and yield to it.
Well look who's talking!
Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions there winman. Jeus tells the Samaritan alone comes back to thank the Lord. And Jesus tells him in verse 19 of Luke 17:"Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
The other nine were indeed physically healed, but they did not hear those particular words from the mouth of Jesus. They were not saved --but the Samaritan was not only physically healed but his soul was also healed --hence he received salvation.
I believe the Father gives those whom he foresees in his foreknowledge will believe. So of course they will come to Jesus.
Jesus will of course not lose any who come to him.
Yes, we must be drawn to come to Jesus. No man is born knowing the gospel, man must be taught by the word of God to come to Jesus. They must hear and learn from the Father through the word of God. It does not say they have to be supernaturally zapped to come as you falsely believe.
Yes, no man can come unless God has enabled him. Again, no man is born knowing the gospel. A man must be taught of God, he must be made "wise unto salvation" through the holy scriptures as Paul said to Timothy.
You are funny, I DO listen to God's word, and that is why I know we do not have to be zapped to believe. That is nothing but good ol' RCC mystical superstition from the dark ages. It is not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures show we are taught by the word of God and this knowledge is what enables us to believe. Paul asks how any man can believe on Jesus unless he has HEARD of him. Man's problem is not that he cannot believe, but man does not know WHAT to believe. No man is born knowing of the true God and his Son Jesus Christ who died for him. It is the holy scriptures and holy men of God that preach the scriptures that makes a man "wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus". That is why Paul also asks how any man can hear without a preacher. Paul does not say we need to be zapped to believe or hear as you falsely teach and believe. Those are the false doctrines of men.
Salvation is supernatural. The word of God itself is a supernatural revelation from God. Men did not write the scriptures, God did as he moved holy men to write his words. His words are quick and powerful and able to pierce to the very soul of man. That is conviction. They also teach a man if he will cry out to Jesus in his heart he will be saved. When the man calls on Jesus, then Jesus saves the man, his sins are washed away, and the Holy Spirit comes and abides in him forever. That is supernatural.
But believing is not supernatural, it is a God-given ability all men have. But again, men do not know WHAT to believe. That is what the scriptures and preaching do, make us "wise unto salvation" through faith in Jesus.
2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
It is you that needs to listen to the word of God and not the medieval mystic superstitions of the RCC.
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Well then you believe wrongly winman. Foreknowledge is forelove. God is not merely an accurate fortune teller. He set His love upon those of His choosing. He recorded their names in the Lamb's Book of Life before the creation of the world.
And everyone who comes to Jesus is first drawn by the Father and given to the Son.
The basics:
All who are drawn by the Father are given of Him to the Son. None of them will be lost each and every one of them will be raised up at the last day. No one can come to Jesus except those whom the Father who sent Jesus draws them. No one has the power to come to Jesus on their own --only by the permission/will of the Father.
You said the above absurdity twice in your post. I gave you God's Holy Word --not what you, silly boy, have falsely accused me of.
You contradict yourself within the same sentence. Men did indeed write His words as the Holy Spirit moved them along.
You deny the depravity and inability of man. Your denials are against the Word of God. Believing/faith is indeed God-given. But it is not a natural gift. It is supernatural. If it is God-given it is a mere tautology that it is supernatural!
Bump.....................
Acts 2:23 mentions foreknowledge, and it has nothing to do with setting God's love on another, but simply foreknowing events before they took place.
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
This verse has nothing to do with love. It says Jesus was delivered by the foreknowledge of God. Jesus knew that Judas would betray him, and that he would lead the soldiers to him in the garden, and Jesus allowed himself to be delivered to them to be crucified. This is foreknowledge of an event, not some personal love story.
Yes, you would not even know of Jesus if God had not taught you through the scriptures or preaching of the word of God. This is how you were drawn to Jesus (Jhn 6:45)
False, only those who come are given to Jesus.
Everyone who comes will be raised up. Those that refuse to come will not.
Yes.
Power is not the right word, ability is. No one could possibly come to Jesus unless God had revealed Jesus to him. Man's inability is due to ignorance, not an inability or lack of power to believe. All men have the ability to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know. This is what Paul clearly shows in Romans 10:14.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Does Paul ask how a man can believe in Jesus unless he has been supernaturally regenerated? NOPE, he implies only they must HEAR to believe.
Does Paul ask how a man can hear the gospel unless he has been supernaturally regenerated? Nope, he implies only that a preacher must preach the gospel to him.
These verse clearly imply that all a man needs to believe on Jesus is a preacher to come and preach the gospel to him. There is not one word saying a man must be regenerated to hear or believe here or anywhere else in all the Bible. Your doctrine is not from scripture, it is a man-made invention not found anywhere in the word of God.
It is not absurd. Catholicism is nothing but ancient medieval superstition and mysticism, MAGIC. Smoke and candles, incantations, etc... That is why you think a person has to be magically regenerated to believe.
You know what I meant. Holy men wrote the words of God as the Holy Spirit inspired them to.
You deny the depravity and inability of man. Your denials are against the Word of God. Believing/faith is indeed God-given. But it is not a natural gift. It is supernatural. If it is God-given it is a mere tautology that it is supernatural!
I do not deny depravity. Anybody can look at pictures of the Holocaust and see how depraved and evil man can be. But men are not born that way, God has made man upright, but they have sought out many inventions (Ecc 7:29)
The scriptures teach that man "corrupted" his way. The word corrupt means to go from a good state to an evil state, like fruit that corrupts and spoils if you leave it out. The scriptures say man has "become filthy". That shows a progression from being clean to being very dirty.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
The scriptures do not say we were born corrupt, they say men "corrupted" his way. The scriptures do not say we are born filthy, they say we have "become" filthy.
Words have meaning.
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Jesus stated that NONE come unto Him EXCEPT the father first drawn them, that ALL whom the father gives to him he will save!
God saves us because he chose to in Christ, NOT due to us "first lovong Him!"
he loves me first, sent the Son to die for me, and the Spirit to make sure that I would get saved!
You really mess and and reverse this, as you have us coming to God first, and the truth is that n one of us shall due that apart from His work and will towards us first!
God saves us because he chose to in Christ, NOT due to us "first lovong Him!"
he loves me first, sent the Son to die for me, and the Spirit to make sure that I would get saved!
You really mess and and reverse this, as you have us coming to God first, and the truth is that n one of us shall due that apart from His work and will towards us first!
1) The Bible precludes the possibility of Irresistible Grace, the idea is a Calvinist fiction. Matthew 23:13 tells us men were "entering heaven" and thus had to be under the influence of Irresistible Grace, yet were blocked so the grace was not irresistible.
2) Does the conversion of Paul demonstrate even the possibility of Irresistible Grace? Nope He was a zealous believer in God, but thought the Messiah Jesus was not the actual promised Messiah. But Paul was convinced, Jesus told him and Paul believed.
3) Calvinism is an argument from silence, but it fails because scripture speaks, precluding the argument.
Sinners can and do resist the Grace of God, for they have hard hearts/deaf ears, but those whom salvation was provided for at the Cross will have ears to hear, and Goid will make them understand and respond to Him!
the Apostle paul had "no choice", as he was predestined and chosen by God as his Apostle unto ther gentiles, there was no second choice!
To see why Calvinism makes sense in regards to how God saves sinners, MUST get a grasp on just what happened to all of us in the Fall!
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