Does Paul's conversion prove Calvinism's teaching on Irresistible Grace?

[Winman]

Part 2 continued...

What does "the Lord opened her heart to respond" mean?

My Bible doesn't say God caused her to respond, it says God opened her heart, THAT she attended unto the things spoken by Paul.

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

The word of God taught her, it spoke to her, she was convicted, and so she listened intently to what Paul taught. It is not saying she was regenerated to believe. If you read it carefully, it actually argues that SHE made that decision to listen and learn.

But she was already a worshiper of God before Paul spoke. And she willingly heard Paul.

Again, you are reading into scripture what you have been indoctrinated to see. The scripture is not actually saying what you think it is saying. Again, it's like the "two sticks", a Mormon has been taught to automatically think of the Bible and the Book of Mormon when they hear those words.

So Jesus was wrong. They actually can come, they just need knowledge. I see. Jesus said they CAN NOT COME. He tells us why too. Not because they lacked knowledge of the Messiah, - he's literally staring them in the face! - but because they are not drawn by the Father: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." Coming to the Son is absolutely dependent on the drawing of the Father. Only tose drawn will come and they all will come. It's right there!

No, no man can come to Jesus unless he has heard and learned from the Father. No man is born knowing the gospel. You did not believe on Jesus until you heard the gospel and neither did I.

Both are correct. #1 is most clearly found in John 6, #2 is found in Rom 10. They are not mutually exclusive.

Baloney, Paul does not mention the need to be regenerated to believe and hear either here, or anywhere else in all scripture. You can't show it. You simply WANT to believe that is what is being said.

Please tell me where I said, "after [being saved] he can do whatever he wants."

You didn't say it, you IMPLIED it. You pointed out that Acts 21 was not concerning the gospel, implying that Paul HAD to irresistibly believe that, but in Acts 21 he was free to disobey God if he chose to do so.

You don't reason. You keep repeating your already refuted errors and then build strawmen when you're failing... like now.

Yeah, like Baptist4life said when he said I was making you Calvinists look ridiculous. That is, if you were unbiased simply reading the thread.

Why do I bother???

Stubborness?

Really? And you find this in scripture where?

Lydia wasn't saved, yet she willingly heard Paul.

Cornelius lived a devout life for years, he feared God, prayed always, and did many good works that God recognized, yet he was not saved, nor did he have the Holy Spirit.

The Philipian jailer wanted to be saved, but he was not regenerated, neither did he have the Spirit, because you receive the Spirit AFTER you believe, yet he wanted salvation.

Like I have said, there are volumes of scriptures that all refute Calvinism. They are everywhere in the scriptures.

All off topic. That derailed quickly.
(plus the response was getting too long)

No, most Jews understood they were sinners and knew they had to be saved by God's mercy. They knew they had to confess their sins and give a sacrifice to be forgiven.

 

[RLBosley]

This will be long. This is response part 1 t your part 1 :smilewinkgrin:

I have never said "whosoever" means everyone is able. I would say "whosoever" refutes Limited Atonement. If Limited Atonement is true, if Jesus did not die for you, it would not matter if you believed, you would die and go to hell.

You contradict yourself – again. You have said repeatedly that everyone is able to come to Christ, the just need to be taught more seems to be your premise. If you believe “whosoever” refutes limited atonement, then you really do believe it means everyone is able.

To address ability I have shown Lev 1:1-4 several times in this thread now, this passage teaches that "any man of you" could offer an offering to the Lord "of his own voluntary will" and that it would be "accepted to make atonement for him"
Now, it doesn't get any clearer than that, any man among the Jews could give a sin offering of his own free will, and it would be accepted. Total Inability is crushed. If men have free will, then they have ability. "

And it’s been shown that Lev 1:1-4 has nothing at all to do with what you call free will. It was a non-required sacrifice that the people could bring at anytime in order to be accepted and cleansed from sin. It does not prove that men have libertarian free will, nor does it disprove total inability.

Yes, and I have shown you at least three times that God has determined to save those who believe, and damn those who believe not. (Mar 16:16)

Yep. Again I agree. Therefore that isn’t the issue! That’s your problem; you are trying to make a debate where there isn’t one, and ignore the real discussion. Those who believe are saved, those who don’t are condemned. But how does one come to believe? That’s the issue!

This does not say or prove all men cannot believe.

Pay attention.
In John 6 we see coming to the Son being analogous to believing in the Son, correct? Compare verses 36, 37 and 40 if you doubt.
With that established, look at 37-38 again:

Jhn 6:37-38 NASB - 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to (believe in) Me, and the one who comes to (believes in) Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
All, those who are given to the Son will come to and believe in the Son. ALL - every single one of them.
So the question is, who are given to the Son? Everyone or only some people? Clearly the implication here (which is openly stated elsewhere) is that only some are given. Therefore only some are able to believe. And this believing is contingent upon being drawn by the Father.

This DOES address who can come, but that was explained by Jesus in vs. 45;

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Only those men who have listened (heard) the gospel and been taught can come to Jesus. It doesn't say they had to be regenerated.

I’ve refuted this several times. Why do you continue to abuse the Word of God? What does verse 45 say? “Taught OF God” (“By God” is actually a better translation, we don’t typically use “of” in the sense used here anymore) not “ABOUT God.”
This totally destroys your argument. These people, who come have learned OF the Father, or learned FROM the Father, meaning that there is something supernatural going on here directed from the Father, not that these people simply hear the gospel. He is talking about God’s drawing and regeneration. Not just hearing the gospel preached.

This is not saying men were predestined to believe, it says those whom God foreknew were predestined to become conformed to the image of his son.

I would argue that God foreknew those that would believe the gospel in time, and predestined them.

See, you are reading all sorts of things into these verses that are not being said. You have been indoctrinated by Calvinist doctrine.

I’ve been indoctrinated? Yet you are the one denying what the text says.
Amazing.
Never does scripture say that God’s foreknowledge is simply knowing who would believe. Never is predestination shown as being based off of God’s reaction to the creation.
Yes we are predestined to be conformed to Christ. But what does that mean? It means salvation, our union and identification in Christ, along with holiness and sanctification. Paul here shows our predestination has a specific purpose, salvation both first justification and continual sanctification.
Foreknown>Predestined>Called>Justified>Glorified
Same group throughout, none missing, and all the act of God. Never once is believe even mentioned here. It’s all God’s actions.

Again, he chose us "in him". No one is "in him" until they believe in time (Rom 16:7). So how could God choose us "in him" before the foundation of the world? FOREKOWLEDGE. We are elect according to foreknowledge and belief of the truth (1 Pet 1:2, 2 The 2:13)

You see, I have no difficulty answering you from scripture. But none of this supports Calvinism.

So God doesn’t actually choose us then. He simply reacts to our choice of him. That’s what you are saying. Why do you have such a hard time just believe what is written? I know it’s contrary to what you have been taught and what you want to be true, but it’s still the truth. Read this slowly and really get it:
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,”
God chose us. He chose us to be saved. He chose us to be in Christ. He chose us that we would be holy and blameless in his sight. He predestined us to be adopted. What is adoption? Being brought into the family of God, i.e, salvation. On what basis? Foreseen faith? Absolutely not! Solely according to the kind intention of HIS WILL.

Being born again IS supernatural. Only God can do that. But only those who have received Jesus and believed on his name, to these persons only has God given the power to "become" the sons of God. (Jhn 1:12-13).

So you totally ignore the text. I see. Can’t deal with it, so ignore it.
“According to His great mercy [he] caused us to be born again.”

Nonsense, NONE of this scripture supports your view. In each case you are reading Calvinism INTO scripture when it is not being shown. You have been CONDITIONED to see things that are not there, just as a Mormon has been conditioned to believe the "two sticks" mean the Bible and the Book of Mormon. That is called BRAINWASHING.

You really are too much. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. You somehow can read that God causes us to be born again, that he chose us before all creation, that only those called by God are able to come to Jesus and still say that all men have a natural ability to believe independent of the work of God. Amazing. And you say I’m brainwashed. Lol

 

[RLBosley]

part 2 to part 1

There is a type of inability. It is not an inability to believe, it is an inability to believe what you do not know. No man is born knowing of the true God and the gospel of Jesus Christ, therefore no man can be born with the ability to believe on Jesus. But it does not take regeneration to enable a man to believe, it takes KNOWLEDGE. The word of God gives that man the knowledge that enables him to believe.

2 Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Did Paul say Timothy had to be regenerated to believe? NOPE, he said the scriptures were able to make Timothy WISE unto salvation, through faith in Jesus. In other words, the Bible taught Timothy he could be saved if he would believe on Jesus.

Yep. All we need is knowledge. That’s Christianity… no wait… that’s Gnosticism. My bad.
Again, God uses means. Yes he uses the scriptures and teachers and preachers to spread the gospel and inform people of the word of God. But it isn’t simple knowledge that saves. Otherwise why would people reject the gospel? If all people need is knowledge, only stupid people would refuse the gospel.

We agree here. Regeneration is supernatural and only God can perform that. But God only regenerates those that receive Jesus and believe on his name.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Who are the "them" in this verse that God gives the "power" to "become" the sons of God? It is those who receive Jesus and believe on his name.

Plain as day.

No we don’t agree. You give lip service to saying regeneration is supernatural, but really you believe it is a natural consequence of something everyone can do. That’s not supernatural. That’s like saying sleep is supernatural. It’s nonsense.
John 1:12 – Yes the “them” is those who receive Jesus. But what’s the basis? What’s the next verses say Winman? How does this occur?
Jhn 1:13 NASB - 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Again. Clear as day. Just believe the Bible Winman.

No, not everyone drawn comes, read Matthew 22, many people who were called and bid to come to the wedding refused to come. The king who represents the Father was angry and destroyed these rebellious persons.

Unreal. This is why you’re an Arminian, you just can’t understand the text.
Look again. Who does the “calling” in Matt 22? The servants of the King right? This is analogous to our evangelism and witnessing. We go out as servants of the King and bid all to come. (Also, note the wording. We “call” people to Jesus, we don’t “draw” them)
In John 6 who is doing the drawing? Not just calling, but actually drawing. The Father himself.
People reject the calling by the servants, no one can reject the drawing by the King.

John 6 literally could not be any clearer. All who are called by the Father WILL come. They can’t not come.

Ran out of time. Got to go!

 

[Winman]

part 2 to part 1
Yep. All we need is knowledge. That’s Christianity… no wait… that’s Gnosticism. My bad.
Again, God uses means. Yes he uses the scriptures and teachers and preachers to spread the gospel and inform people of the word of God. But it isn’t simple knowledge that saves. Otherwise why would people reject the gospel? If all people need is knowledge, only stupid people would refuse the gospel.

That's exactly what the scriptures say.

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

Jesus constantly spoke of foolish people who did not listen.

Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

These persons are not disabled in any way, they are willingly ignorant. (2 Pet 3:5)

No we don’t agree. You give lip service to saying regeneration is supernatural, but really you believe it is a natural consequence of something everyone can do. That’s not supernatural. That’s like saying sleep is supernatural. It’s nonsense.
John 1:12 – Yes the “them” is those who receive Jesus. But what’s the basis? What’s the next verses say Winman? How does this occur?
Jhn 1:13 NASB - 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Again. Clear as day. Just believe the Bible Winman.

I agree with this scripture 100%, God regenerates those persons who receive and believe on Jesus Christ. He gives those persons "the power to become the sons of God".

Our believing is not supernatural, but God regenerating those who choose to believe is. This is not difficult to understand.

Unreal. This is why you’re an Arminian, you just can’t understand the text.
Look again. Who does the “calling” in Matt 22? The servants of the King right? This is analogous to our evangelism and witnessing. We go out as servants of the King and bid all to come. (Also, note the wording. We “call” people to Jesus, we don’t “draw” them)
In John 6 who is doing the drawing? Not just calling, but actually drawing. The Father himself.
People reject the calling by the servants, no one can reject the drawing by the King.

How can a person be called and bid to come to the wedding and not be drawn? The king's servants are literally begging people to come, but they refuse.

The ones who finally do come weren't dragged there, they simply obeyed the invitation and came.

John 6 literally could not be any clearer. All who are called by the Father WILL come. They can’t not come.

Ran out of time. Got to go!

It does not say that anywhere.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse says no one can come to Jesus unless drawn. It also says everyone who comes will be raised up on the last day.

But it DOES NOT say everyone drawn comes.

Compare it to fishing. You cannot catch a fish unless you hook it and draw it in. And if the fish is caught, you could fry it up that night.

Does that mean the fish cannot fight and get away? No, fish fight and get away all the time. They are drawn, but they are not necessarily caught.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97JjbkFeD7s

Every fish caught was drawn, and it will be fried up that night, but that does not mean every fish drawn was caught.

You know, I could have understood this when I was 5 years old, I cannot help but believe Calvinists are playing dumb when they act like they can't understand this. Nobody is that stupid.

But maybe I am wrong.

 

[convicted1]

Yep. But do you see a gap, in time, between the two? I haven't seen any evidence of that. As I understand it, Regeneration logically precedes conversion, but in time they are simultaneous.

You are asking a very deep question, Brother. I will tell you how God dealt w/me. I was one who had zero desire to serve Him. Sure, I'd talk to people about the bible, even enjoying it, and occasionally getting goose bumps talking about the bible. But when they'd try to convert me, I'd shun them and back away. When God truly got ahold of me, showed me how vile I really was, how utterly lost, how totally depraved, how deserving I was of eternal punishment, I then realized how much I needed Him, how much I yearned to serve Him. I was like Graceless when he first encountered Evangelist. I had a burden upon me that no one could see. I knew not which way, or where to go. I knew I needed to flee the city called Destruction. I am still on my pilgrimage for that Celestial City.

Now, as far as when I was regenerated, I have no clue. Much like when we're born naturally. We had life, but no clue to it, being just born.

I hope this helps the thread along...

 

[convicted1]

To have true salvation you need:

• God given regeneration
• God given sanctification
• God given justification.....insert faith here...
• God given repentance
• God given salvation.....and at the end of it all....drum roll please....
• God given glorification

 

[Winman]

This will be long. This is response part 1 t your part 1 :smilewinkgrin:

You contradict yourself – again. You have said repeatedly that everyone is able to come to Christ, the just need to be taught more seems to be your premise. If you believe “whosoever” refutes limited atonement, then you really do believe it means everyone is able.

Yes, I believe everyone COULD come. But I don't believe the word "whosoever" addresses ability. Whosoever means the invitation is universal, open to all.

Now, in Leviticus 1:1-4 I believe ability is addressed. It says "if" (denotes possibility) "any man of you" (universal) shall bring an offering, he shall bring it of "his own voluntary will" (ability), and it "shall be accepted" (guaranteed) to make "atonement" (a religious act) for him.

Lev 1:1-4 absolutely refutes Total Inability.

And it’s been shown that Lev 1:1-4 has nothing at all to do with what you call free will. It was a non-required sacrifice that the people could bring at anytime in order to be accepted and cleansed from sin. It does not prove that men have libertarian free will, nor does it disprove total inability.

Give me a break, it absolutely addresses free will, God himself said that "any man of you" could bring an offering of "his own voluntary will". This shows any man can perform a religious act and make a true and good offering to God. And God promised that he would accept that act of worship to make atonement for that man.

You have to be in utter denial to deny this proves men have free will. You have to be downright intellectually dishonest with your own self. If you want to deceive your own self, that is your choice, but no intelligent and honest person would agree with you. NONE.

Yep. Again I agree. Therefore that isn’t the issue! That’s your problem; you are trying to make a debate where there isn’t one, and ignore the real discussion. Those who believe are saved, those who don’t are condemned. But how does one come to believe? That’s the issue!

The word of God enables belief in Jesus. Men are born with the ability to believe, but no man can believe what he does not know.

Jhn 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

These persons believe in God, Jesus himself said so. But they have not believed on Jesus yet, otherwise Jesus would not need to tell them to believe on him. But they can believe.

But no man can believe on Jesus until he hears the gospel. It is knowledge that enables a man to believe on Jesus. I showed you 2 Tim 3:15 where Paul told Timothy the scriptures were ABLE to make him WISE unto salvation through faith in Jesus.

You simply DO NOT WANT to hear what the scriptures clearly teach.

Pay attention.
In John 6 we see coming to the Son being analogous to believing in the Son, correct? Compare verses 36, 37 and 40 if you doubt.
With that established, look at 37-38 again:

Jhn 6:37-38 NASB - 37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to (believe in) Me, and the one who comes to (believes in) Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
All, those who are given to the Son will come to and believe in the Son. ALL - every single one of them.
So the question is, who are given to the Son? Everyone or only some people? Clearly the implication here (which is openly stated elsewhere) is that only some are given. Therefore only some are able to believe. And this believing is contingent upon being drawn by the Father.

I agree only some are given, and only those given will come to Jesus and believe on him. But who does the Father give to Jesus? I believe he gives those whom he foresaw would believe. God saw these persons before the foundation of the world, he saw they would believe the gospel in time. God chose these persons through "belief of the truth" (2 The 2:13). And now in time, God the Father gave these persons to Jesus. They will certainly come to Jesus, as God has already infallibly foreseen.

I’ve refuted this several times. Why do you continue to abuse the Word of God? What does verse 45 say? “Taught OF God” (“By God” is actually a better translation, we don’t typically use “of” in the sense used here anymore) not “ABOUT God.”
This totally destroys your argument. These people, who come have learned OF the Father, or learned FROM the Father, meaning that there is something supernatural going on here directed from the Father, not that these people simply hear the gospel. He is talking about God’s drawing and regeneration. Not just hearing the gospel preached.

It takes two to learn. The teacher teaches, the pupil listens and learns. Only those persons who have willingly listened to the word of God from the Father and learned will come to Jesus. Nothing difficult here.

Not everybody listens and learns from the Father, some reject knowledge.

Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Not everybody God tries to teach will listen to him, they refuse. Irresistible Grace is refuted right there.

I’ve been indoctrinated? Yet you are the one denying what the text says.
Amazing.
Never does scripture say that God’s foreknowledge is simply knowing who would believe. Never is predestination shown as being based off of God’s reaction to the creation.
Yes we are predestined to be conformed to Christ. But what does that mean? It means salvation, our union and identification in Christ, along with holiness and sanctification. Paul here shows our predestination has a specific purpose, salvation both first justification and continual sanctification.
Foreknown>Predestined>Called>Justified>Glorified
Same group throughout, none missing, and all the act of God. Never once is believe even mentioned here. It’s all God’s actions.

Scripture does show God chooses those in his foreknowledge would believe.

Jhn 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

How many persons did Jesus choose? Twelve. How many were a devil? ONE. What does that tell you about the other eleven? Jesus KNEW they would believe. He knew they would serve him the rest of their life and die for him, and that is why he chose them. He also foreknew that Judas would betray him, and he choose Judas to bring to pass God's will. He didn't make Judas betray him, but he foreknew he would.

And 2 The 2:13 directly says we are chosen "from the beginning" "through" "belief of the truth". That is foreknowledge of faith as well.

2 The 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Plain as day.

So God doesn’t actually choose us then. He simply reacts to our choice of him. That’s what you are saying. Why do you have such a hard time just believe what is written? I know it’s contrary to what you have been taught and what you want to be true, but it’s still the truth. Read this slowly and really get it:
“just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,”
God chose us. He chose us to be saved. He chose us to be in Christ. He chose us that we would be holy and blameless in his sight. He predestined us to be adopted. What is adoption? Being brought into the family of God, i.e, salvation. On what basis? Foreseen faith? Absolutely not! Solely according to the kind intention of HIS WILL.

Again, if God wants to choose those who willingly believe in Jesus, why can't he? How does that make man sovereign?

So you totally ignore the text. I see. Can’t deal with it, so ignore it.
“According to His great mercy [he] caused us to be born again.”

What? I don't deny this at all. God sent Jesus to die for us because of his mercy. But you have to believe on Jesus to be saved, that is God's rule.

You really are too much. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad. You somehow can read that God causes us to be born again, that he chose us before all creation, that only those called by God are able to come to Jesus and still say that all men have a natural ability to believe independent of the work of God. Amazing. And you say I’m brainwashed. Lol

You think hubris proves you are winning this debate? Good luck.

God chose those persons whom he foresaw would believe on Jesus in time. We are elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father, We are chosen from the beginning through "belief of the truth".

God chose the ones he saw would believe. These are God's sheep. He gave those sheep to Jesus, and they will come without fail, because God's foreknowledge is infallible. God doesn't force them to come, but he saw they would come, and God is never wrong.

Everything I say is supported by scripture which I have shown. No contradictions, no difficulties, no need to redefine words.

 

[Rippon]

Whosoever means the invitation is universal, open to all.

The word translated as 'whosoever' means simply --believing ones.

no need to redefine words.

Heed your own advice.

 

[Winman]

The word translated as 'whosoever' means simply --believing ones.

Heed your own advice.

Well, according to Strong's Concordance, the word "whosoever" is the Greek word, pas, which means;

1. individually
A. each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything
2. collectively
A. some of all types

I don't know Greek, but I can read English, and I don't see anything about the "believing ones" there.

Of course, Rippon is a Calvinist, and who knows what any word means to him?

 

[Van]

I wouldn't have said that, if you hadn't blatantly ignored or misrepresented everything I said. Don't get mad at me when you lie and I call you out on it.

Repeating your fiction does not make it valid. I did not ignore nor misrepresent what I addressed in my post.

Again, no quote will be forthcoming to substantiate this "oh poor pitiful me, I'm the victim of ...." change the subject tactic.

Returning to topic, note how the Calvinist repeatedly changes the subject to my flawed behavior. But the topic content, Paul being zealous for God while rejecting Jesus demonstrates Irresistible Grace is a fiction, is ignored.

I do not expect any Calvinist to actually address that topic!!

 

[Van]

To have true salvation you need:

• God given regeneration
• God given sanctification
• God given justification.....insert faith here...
• God given repentance
• God given salvation.....and at the end of it all....drum roll please....
• God given glorification

Lets consider this heart-felt declaration of supposed truth.

What is true salvation. Is it not comprised of three phases, positional sanctification where God puts a chosen one spiritually in Christ; progressive sanctification where a person who has been put in Christ grows more Christ like and earns rewards so as to enter heaven "abundantly; and three, ultimate sanctification at Christ's second coming, where we are clothed in glorified bodies. But they occur in the order given, so first lets consider "positional sanctification" or being placed spiritually in Christ.

What does scripture teach? 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation through the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth. Thus a conditional election predicated on God crediting or reckoning our faith in Christ as righteousness.

Next after believing as determined by God, we are sanctified, meaning set apart in Christ. Before we are in Christ we are spiritually dead, because when we are put in Christ, we are made alive together with Christ.

We are spiritually baptized into Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, born anew from above. Thus, we are justified and our sin burden is taken away.

Now that we have been regenerated, made alive and made blameless and holy, we are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
Our positional sanctification is complete. We are now, spiritually children of God, but we still eagerly await our adoption, our bodily redemption at Christ's second coming. In the mean-time we strive to serve Christ and become more Christ like, building on our foundation in Christ with, hopefully, eternally valuable stuff, and not straw that will be burned up, such that we enter heaven abundantly.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yep. But do you see a gap, in time, between the two? I haven't seen any evidence of that. As I understand it, Regeneration logically precedes conversion, but in time they are simultaneous.

Would say that its BOTH, as before God view in salvation, the Spirit has quickened and made anew the sinners heart and mind to be enabled to understand and believe unto Jesus to get saved, but that person will respond to the message and get saved immendiantly



So to us, looks like they put faith in Jesus same time God gave them the means to do such!

I do not hold as some do to God regenerate someone, and then years later they actually believe in jesus!

 

[Van]

As I understand it, Regeneration logically precedes conversion, but in time they are simultaneous.

If a person accepts Total Spiritual Inability, then "logically" regeneration meaning being altered by Irresistible Grace, precedes conversion. However, since Total Spiritual Inability is unbiblical, a mistaken doctrine, then the logic evaporates, and we get God crediting our faith as righteousness before or simultaneously with God putting us spiritually in Christ. Since we are made alive together with Christ, our regeneration occurs after God credits our faith as righteousness.

 

[Yeshua1]

If a person accepts Total Spiritual Inability, then "logically" regeneration meaning being altered by Irresistible Grace, precedes conversion. However, since Total Spiritual Inability is unbiblical, a mistaken doctrine, then the logic evaporates, and we get God crediting our faith as righteousness before or simultaneously with God putting us spiritually in Christ. Since we are made alive together with Christ, our regeneration occurs after God credits our faith as righteousness.[/QUOTE

faith is the gift from God to us, so he does NOT credit t]hat to our account, as the basis to save sinners is always the merits of the death of Christ, and THAT is what He credits towards us

 

[convicted1]

Not all men have faith. Therefore, any faith we have is God given. The only reason why our faith is creditted for anything is because of the One who gave it to us.

 

[Van]

Faith is the gift from God to us, so he does NOT credit that to our account, as the basis to save sinners is always the merits of the death of Christ, and THAT is what He credits towards us

Romans 4:4-5 does indeed teach God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness or not. Strike one

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches God chooses us for salvation through faith in the truth. Strike two

James 2:5 teaches God chooses those who love Him. Strike three

Calvinism is simply unbiblical, no matter how often its bogus mantra is posted.

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 4:4-5 does indeed teach God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness or not. Strike one

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches God chooses us for salvation through faith in the truth. Strike two

James 2:5 teaches God chooses those who love Him. Strike three

Calvinism is simply unbiblical, no matter how often its bogus mantra is posted.

Is the basis of our justification that we chose Jesus, or that he died in order to have us chose Him thru faith?

 

[Yeshua1]

Not all men have faith. Therefore, any faith we have is God given. The only reason why our faith is creditted for anything is because of the One who gave it to us.

van wants sinners tcept jesus by faith as the basis of God saving them, but the Bible teaches that its the Cross of the Messiah that does
that!
We must receive him thru faith, but its ALWAYS the object of faith that saves us, not the faith itself!!

 

[Van]

Is the basis of our justification that we chose Jesus, or that he died in order to have us chose Him thru faith?

Yet another "change the subject" question. We are justified when we undergo the circumcision of Christ. This occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ.

So the "basis" of our justification is God crediting our faith in Christ as righteous and setting us apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

 

[Van]

van wants sinners tcept jesus by faith as the basis of God saving them, but the Bible teaches that its the Cross of the Messiah that does
that!
We must receive him thru faith, but its ALWAYS the object of faith that saves us, not the faith itself!!

Note, that Yeshua1 does not provide a quote, but does provide a slander.

Lets review the slanders and misrepresentations constantly posted by the Calvinist Yeshua1:

1) Van wants sinners to accept Jesus by faith as the basis of God saving them. Total fiction. God crediting our faith as righteous is the basis of being chosen for salvation, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The Calvinist will never cite any verse to support his man-made Calvinist mantra.

2) Is the finished work of the cross, the sacrifice (sin offering) of Jesus, the basis of our individual election for salvation? Nope. God chooses us for salvation through the sanctification by the Holy Spirit and faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. The Calvinist will never cite any verse to support his man-made Calvinist mantra.

3) Did I say our faith saves us? Nope. Again, the Calvinist slanders and misrepresents me to create a strawman argument. God saves us by choosing us for salvation, based on crediting our faith as righteousness, setting us apart in Christ, and causing us to undergo the circumcision of Christ.

So three slanderous statements by the Calvinist once again. And no other Calvinist will hold him accountable. None. Zip Nada.

Note that the Calvinist did not address the topic, or why Irresistible Grace is shown to be a mistaken view because Paul was zealous for God while rejecting Jesus. This topic is avoided like the plague by all Calvinists.