Does predestination In romans 8 refer To before or After Faith in Christ?

[JesusFan]

Is this a passive or active Will of God paul is referring to here?

 

[Tom Butler]

The scriptural order is that God,

foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified. (8:29:30)

Before faith.
Active.

 

[jbh28]

Predestination is obviously before faith in Christ. As Tom pointed out by quoting that passage, predestination comes before justification(which is when faith in Christ happens). Also Ephesians 1 says it was before the foundation of the world, so that makes is pretty clear.

 

[Tom Butler]

This is true whether you're Cal or Non-Cal.

 

[webdog]

I don't believe there is a "pre" or a "fore" with an omnitemporal God. Anthropomorphic language, IMO.

 

[Tom Butler]

I don't believe there is a "pre" or a "fore" with an omnitemporal God. Anthropomorphic language, IMO.

Actually, I think Romans 8:29-30 could stand just as well if it were rendered
"For whom he knew, he destined to be conformed to the image of His Son.....and those he destined, he called, etc..."

So God knew, destined, called, justified, glorified. Doesn't sound anthropomorphic to me.

One area of agreement. God is omni-temporal. How else can we explain the fact that those of us whom God has justified have been glorified?

In the mind of God,even future events (like our glorification) are as if they have already occurred.

 

[rorschach]

John 6 makes it abundantly clear that God's will is decisive. I think that it is an incomplete/immature understanding to ask whether God's decisive action (that is, everything) is active or passive, which would suggest that God is somehow less sovereign and less willful in one thing than in another.

As for Romans, consider that "foreknowledge" is itself a term used to refer to God's choosing Israel to be his elect people. That's fitting, given that Paul is a Jew and is writing about how the two people groups -- Israel and the Gentiles -- are included in God's eternal plan. So, foreknowledge here doesn't actually refer to the idea of God knowing ahead of time, as we are likely to understand what we read in English. It instead refers to God's sovereign election of individuals to salvation, as God sovereignly chose Israel.

The "predestining" that follows is probably a reference to the fulfillment of our future hope -- glorification (which is a matter that Paul addresses throughout the letter). So, we are sovereignly chosen to be saved (God's will is decisive; cf. Jn 6), and then predestined to endure to the end and be glorified.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 6 makes it abundantly clear that God's will is decisive. I think that it is an incomplete/immature understanding to ask whether God's decisive action (that is, everything) is active or passive, which would suggest that God is somehow less sovereign and less willful in one thing than in another.

As for Romans, consider that "foreknowledge" is itself a term used to refer to God's choosing Israel to be his elect people. That's fitting, given that Paul is a Jew and is writing about how the two people groups -- Israel and the Gentiles -- are included in God's eternal plan. So, foreknowledge here doesn't actually refer to the idea of God knowing ahead of time, as we are likely to understand what we read in English. It instead refers to God's sovereign election of individuals to salvation, as God sovereignly chose Israel.

The "predestining" that follows is probably a reference to the fulfillment of our future hope -- glorification (which is a matter that Paul addresses throughout the letter). So, we are sovereignly chosen to be saved (God's will is decisive; cf. Jn 6), and then predestined to endure to the end and be glorified.

:thumbs::applause::applause::thumbs:

 

[webdog]

Actually, I think Romans 8:29-30 could stand just as well if it were rendered
"For whom he knew, he destined to be conformed to the image of His Son.....and those he destined, he called, etc..."

So God knew, destined, called, justified, glorified. Doesn't sound anthropomorphic to me.

By you changing that, you have just shown how it to be anthropomorphic and not linear

One area of agreement. God is omni-temporal. How else can we explain the fact that those of us whom God has justified have been glorified?

Precisely...and good catch. One of the many reasons we cannot conclude a "logical" linear order with a God that exists in all points of time simultaneously.

In the mind of God,even future events (like our glorification) are as if they have already occurred.

On this we disagree. If it is merely in the mind of God that these events have occurred, He is bound to time. To God these past, present and future events occur because He is IN these points of time, IMO.

 

[JesusFan]

This is true whether you're Cal or Non-Cal.

Not a "proof text" for either cal/Arm, but good to show Eternal Security !