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Does Reformed theology require one to murder heretics

evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
I'm not Reformed, but I was asking questions about it in a Facebook group and lo and behold this one (Reformed) person said that Reformed tradition put heretics to death. I asked if they themselves supported the death penalty for heretics, and they said they did.

I know there are lots of Reformed people on this forum. What do you think of this?

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canadyjd

Well-Known Member
There is probably some from all theological positions that support some sort death penalty for heretics or other particular sins they believe to be really bad.

IMO, It is outrageous to say or promote such thinking.

Jesus changed the conditions for supporting the death of others. You must be without sin.

Peace to you.
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Although it's nearly passed without a peep, 2019 is the 400th anniversary of the Synod of Dort. Earlier this year, I wondered why the Reformed were not commemorating their dogma's greatest victory.

Then I started reading about the vile acts that accompanied the vaunted doctrinal deliverance:

Executed in the Netherlands 13 May 1619 as the Synod of Dort closed, a champion of the Arminians Johan van Oldenbarnevelt. He had been imprisoned for the duration of the Synod of Dort, and was beheaded for ‘subversion of the country’s religion’ shortly after the Gomarists’ form of Calvinism was adopted by the Synod.

Even Ligonier Ministries admits persecution of him “was a shameful act against a Dutch patriot and one of the low points for Dutch Calvinists”:

Arminius and the Remonstrants
 

Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
They next turned their fury on the already-dead body of another opponent of their theology:

Trial of Oldenbarnevelt, Grotius and Hogerbeets

“The next sentence was pronounced on 15 May 1619 over Gilles van Ledenberg, who had been dead since the end of the previous September. Obviously, he could not be executed, but the judges declared in the verdict that he was ‘worthy of death’ and would so have been sentenced if he had been alive. His “exemplary sentence” was that his embalmed body would be hung from a gibbet in its coffin.”

“It was left hanging for 21 days, and after it was taken down, it was buried in the churchyard of the church at Voorburg. However, the same night a mob disinterred the corpse and threw it in a ditch. This caused sufficient revulsion to cause the Hof van Holland (the main Dutch court) to issue an injunction against further depredations. The body was later secretly reburied”

Gilles van Ledenberg
 
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Jerome

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
His “exemplary sentence” was that his embalmed body would be hung from a gibbet in its coffin....It was left hanging for 21 days

His embalmed body was hung from a gibbet for 21 days?

a gibbet ?

I had to look that one up:

“gibbeting refers to the use of a gallows-type structure from which the dead or dying bodies of criminals were hung on public display…to discourage others from committing similar offences”
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not Reformed, but I was asking questions about it in a Facebook group and lo and behold this one (Reformed) person said that Reformed tradition put heretics to death. I asked if they themselves supported the death penalty for heretics, and they said they did.

I know there are lots of Reformed people on this forum. What do you think of this?

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You will find this position held by some big "T" Theonomists of mostly Presbyterian persuasion. This Reformed person does not believe in that.

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Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not Reformed, but I was asking questions about it in a Facebook group and lo and behold this one (Reformed) person said that Reformed tradition put heretics to death. I asked if they themselves supported the death penalty for heretics, and they said they did.

I know there are lots of Reformed people on this forum. What do you think of this?

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I think you found a nutball out of a million.
 

evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
You will find this position held by some big "T" Theonomists of mostly Presbyterian persuasion. This Reformed person does not believe in that.

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That is what this person was

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evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
Some (apparently), not all.
I knew that a lot of the denominations had really sketchy histories where they perescuted other Christians for having the "wrong" doctrine, but I never expected to run into someone who still agrees with that mindset.
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No TRUE theology requires killing anyone, except in war or self-defense. Religious killings are simply murders. Thus, the executions of "heretics" by the various RC "Inquisitions" were simply murders.
 

church mouse guy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No TRUE theology requires killing anyone, except in war or self-defense. Religious killings are simply murders. Thus, the executions of "heretics" by the various RC "Inquisitions" were simply murders.

Cardinal Cupich would disagree with you as would Archbishop Vigano. McCarrick told Salon earlier in the year that he is not so bad. Got to go now, have an appointment with Dr. Feelgood.
 

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
I'm not Reformed, but I was asking questions about it in a Facebook group and lo and behold this one (Reformed) person said that Reformed tradition put heretics to death. I asked if they themselves supported the death penalty for heretics, and they said they did.

I know there are lots of Reformed people on this forum. What do you think of this?

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This is nonsense. No the reformed theology does not require putting heretics to death. You are speaking to an extremist.
 

evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
I'm glad to hear that this view is the minority in Reformed circles.

I was talking to the person who originally told me this and someone who happens to share the same view, and apparently they say it's limited to people like Mohammed or Jim Jones, extreme cases. But still, the definition of "heretic" is too subject to personal opinion for me to be able to support there being laws to give the death penalty for "heretics". Leave people alone unless you have objective evidence that they're going to hurt someone.

I don't know if it was the right move or not, but I ended up leaving the facebook group this took place in. It was one of my favorite groups, so it's regrettable.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not Reformed, but I was asking questions about it in a Facebook group and lo and behold this one (Reformed) person said that Reformed tradition put heretics to death. I asked if they themselves supported the death penalty for heretics, and they said they did.

I know there are lots of Reformed people on this forum. What do you think of this?

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The idea of religious freedom is a recent one and very radical. Ever since Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3:1-7) rulers have believed that it is important that everyone in their country should have the same religion as they do. This is still the case in most Moslem countries, Mianmar, North Korea and, in more recent times, in India. In medieval times, the countries of Christendom were Roman Catholic and dissent from that was often punished by death. Infant 'baptism' was very important to this, because it ensured that everyone was doing things 'properly.' If someone did not submit a new-born child for 'baptism,' that was a sign that he was a dissenter and could be dealt with accordingly.
At the time of the Reformation, many kingdoms or principalities threw out Romanism, but did not allow their subjects to choose what belief they would follow. So some Sates were Lutheran, some Zwinglian and some Reformed. according to the dictate of the ruler. The ordinary citizen had no say. It was the Anabaptists who were the first to advocate freedom of religion and gathered churches, but that did not go down well with the rulers, especially after the debacle of Munster, and the Anabaptists were persecuted both by Rome and by the Protestant princes.
But persecution was not a purely 'Reformed' thing. When the Arminians gained control of the Church of England under Archbishop laud, they persecuted the Calvinists and the other dissenters as hard as they could go. It was not until the 'Act of Settlement in 1688 that there was a degree of toleration for Dissenters in England.

I hope that's helpful for you.
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No TRUE theology requires killing anyone, except in war or self-defense. Religious killings are simply murders. Thus, the executions of "heretics" by the various RC "Inquisitions" were simply murders.

Robycop, I thought you were premil?

Does not the blood run deep prior to the return of Christ?
 

agedman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm glad to hear that this view is the minority in Reformed circles.

I was talking to the person who originally told me this and someone who happens to share the same view, and apparently they say it's limited to people like Mohammed or Jim Jones, extreme cases. But still, the definition of "heretic" is too subject to personal opinion for me to be able to support there being laws to give the death penalty for "heretics". Leave people alone unless you have objective evidence that they're going to hurt someone.

I don't know if it was the right move or not, but I ended up leaving the facebook group this took place in. It was one of my favorite groups, so it's regrettable.

There is not a religious group that has not engaged in some type of over zealousness.

It has and continues to be present in the human efforts to make everyone think alike.

Even in the Millennial reign that will not happen.
 

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
The situation with the established/state churches rises from the concept of sacralism:
Sacral Bound together by a common religious loyalty
Sacral society [A] society held together by a religion to which all the members of that society are committed.
Leonard Verduin, “The Reformers and Their Stepchildren”, p.23
on a prctrical outworking
From This Day in Baptist History, David L. Cummins & E. Wayne Thompson

John Cotton as the prosecuting attorney in the trial of Obadiah Holmes and John Clark at the sentencing “’preached . . . that denying infants’ baptism would overthrow all; and this was a capital offense; therefore they were soul murderers.’ After this Cotton requested the death sentence.” Page 275
Concerning the trial of other Baptists, Governor Endicott said “You have denied infant baptism, and deserve to die; I will have no such trash brought to our jurisdiction.” Page 276​
 

evenifigoalone

Well-Known Member
So when I asked the guy if the persecution of anabaptists was justified, he responded with a yes and because (according to him) the anabaptists were anti-trinitarian, and many were rapists, murderers, etc. Any thoughts or reactions to this?
I admit a lack of knowledge on this history other than the fact that anabaptists were sorely persecuted.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So when I asked the guy if the persecution of anabaptists was justified, he responded with a yes and because (according to him) the anabaptists were anti-trinitarian, and many were rapists, murderers, etc. Any thoughts or reactions to this?
I admit a lack of knowledge on this history other than the fact that anabaptists were sorely persecuted.
The Anabaptists were a mixed bunch and some of them had very dicey theology. Also, there was appalling immorality and a bloodbath in the city of Munster in 1534-5 when radical Anabaptists gained control of the place, and this made the surrounding nations even more determined to suppress the movement. But most Anabaptists were peaceful and even pacifist.
 
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