Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

[The Biblicist]

It is the Aorist tense that demands new birth was an already completed action. The term "born" represents the Aorist tense.

In relationship with that Aorist tense birth, "beleiveth" is present tense. Wallace is simply saying that the present tense cannot be used to define the beginning or ending of the action of beleiving and it does not. It is the Aorist tense "born" that determines the new birth was already a completed action. In relationship with the present tense "beleiveth" which is CONTINUOUS ACTION the logical order is new birth as a completed action in contrast to believeth as a present incomplete action.

The same construction is used four other times by John in this epistle. We are loving God because we have been born of God. We are doing good works because we have been born of God. We are believing in Christ because we have been born of God. The very same identical construction is found in the following verses:

1 Jn. 4:7 ¶ Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth (present tense participle) is born (Aorist tense verb) of God, and knoweth God.

[/COLOR]1 Jn. 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness (present tense pariciple) is born (Aorist tense verb) of him.


1 Jn. 5:1 ¶ Whosoever believeth(present tense participle) that Jesus is the Christ is born (Aorist tense verb) of God:

You are not doing righteousness IN ORDER to be born of God
You are not loving IN ORDER to be born of God
You are not beleiving IN ORDER to be born of God

If you insist 1 Jn. 5:1 demands believing IN ORDER TO be born of God then you equally have to demand doing righteouness is necessary IN ORDER TO be born of God, etc.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

It is the Aorist tense that demands new birth was an already completed action. The term "born" represents the Aorist tense.

No, it is in the "perfect" tense.

In relationship with that Aorist tense birth, "beleiveth" is present tense. Wallace is simply saying that the present tense cannot be used to define the beginning or ending of the action of beleiving and it does not.

Your whole argument is based on your assertion that the act of "believing" happened prior to being born again and now you even admit that that tense does not determine those things:

"the present tense cannot be used to define the beginning or ending of the action of beleiving and it does not."

If you insist 1 Jn. 5:1 demands believing IN ORDER TO be born of God then you equally have to demand doing righteouness is necessary IN ORDER TO be born of God, etc.

Wrong!

Here we can see that "believing" is in the "present" tense and "passing from death unto life" is in the "perfect" tense:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. No one is passed from death unto life until they believe:


"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

 

[The Biblicist]

No, it is in the "perfect" tense.

You are right, I was depending on memory. However, the perfect tense is stronger than the Aorist in regard to completed action. It not only demands a completed action but one that was completed at a point in the past and stands complete right up to the present. Both Aorist and Perfect tenses are completed action.

So you still have the same problem!

1. Do people do righteousness IN ORDER to have been born of God?

2. Do people love IN ORDER TO have been born of God?

If not, then neither do people "believe" IN ORDER TO have been born of God!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you still have the same problem!

1. Do people do righteousness IN ORDER to have been born of God?

2. Do people love IN ORDER TO have been born of God?

I never said that in ever case that the beginning of an action which is in the "present" tense ALWAYS points back to the new birth. You are merely building a straw man so that you can knock it over.

If not, then neither do people "believe" IN ORDER TO have been born of God!

I have shown that you are wrong about this and you do not even attempt to defend your views. Perhaps this time you finally will:

Here we can see that "believing" is in the "present" tense and "passing from death unto life" is in the "perfect" tense:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. And that is because no one is passed from death unto life until they believe:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You continue to refuse to even attempt to defend your assertions and you continue to refuse to address what I said in my initial post on this thread.

 

[The Biblicist]

I never said that in ever case that the beginning of an action which is in the "present" tense ALWAYS points back to the new birth. You are merely building a straw man so that you can knock it over.

In Greek grammar tenses emphasize kind of action more than kind of time. When preceding action is the point being made, the writer uses completed action terms in contrast to incompleted action verbs. When no contrast is intended the writer uses either the same tenses to show identical incompleted action or identical completed action.

John chooses to show a contrast in in 1 John 2:29; 1 Jn. 4:7 as it is obvious doing righteous works do not precede being born again. Neither does loving God precede being born again. The same exact grammar is found in 1 Jn. 5:1 and John 5:24.

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

John uses three tenses here in contrast to each other. Present tense "believeth"! The future tense "shall not come into condemnation"! The perfect tense "passed from death unto life"!

The perfect tense is placed in direct contrast to the future tense. Because regeneration is a completed action at specific point in the past and continues as a completed action in the present therefore there is no reversal in the future from life to death -condemnation.

The present tense "believeth" does not convey beginning or ending points but the perfect tense does convey a beginning point and it is with the new birth - passed from death to life.

If your theory were correct he would have used a perfect tense verb joined with a present tense verb (periphrastic construct) for believeth and only an Aorist tense verb for "passed from death unto life."

 

[savedbymercy]

Faith is a Fruit of the Spirit

Faith is a result , a fruit of havinbg been born of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

The word fruit is the greek word karpos and means:

that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

a) work, act, deed

It is a deed of the Spirit, God the Holy Spirit effects Faith Jn 6:29


29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work[ or effect] of God[The Holy Spirit], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Phil 2:13

13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

In order to believe, one must hear God's words, and only those of God, born of Him, Heareth God's Words Jn 8:47

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Faith is a result of hearing, so that confirms that New Birth is before Faith or believing...

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Faith is a result , a fruit of havinbg been born of the Spirit Gal 5:22

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Of course "faith" is the fruit of the Spirit, and that Spirit comes with the gospel:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance" (1 Thess.1:5).

That explains the words of the Lord Jesus here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

And it is "believing" the gospel and not just hearing it which brings the "life" which the Lord Jesus makes reference:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

When preceding action is the point being made, the writer uses completed action terms in contrast to incompleted action verbs.

You assume that the verb "believeth" is not completed. But you fail to understand that an action in the "present" tense can indeed be completed:

"The durative (linear or progressive) in the present stem: the action is represented as durative (in progress) and either as timeless or as taking place in present time (including, of course, duration on one side or the other of the present moment" (Blass & DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, p. 166.)

Now let us look at the verse again:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The action of believing is considered to be "complete" in the sense that one does not have to continue to believe in order to receive eternal life because once he believes he has already been given eternal life. And the same can be said for believing in regard to the assurance that he will not be condemned. So your point has no merit at all.

Now that I have answered your points it is time for you to finally address the points which I made in my initial post on this thread.

Thanks!

 

[The Biblicist]

You assume that the verb "believeth" is not completed. But you fail to understand that an action in the "present" tense can indeed be completed:

"The durative (linear or progressive) in the present stem: the action is represented as durative (in progress) and either as timeless or as taking place in present time (including, of course, duration on one side or the other of the present moment" (Blass & DeBrunner, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, p. 166.)

Wrong! You are failing to read him correctly. Note the words "Including of course"! What is being included as "in progress"??

ANSWER: what is included as being "in progress" is not only both sides of the present moment but "the present moment" as well! All three aspects are included as "in progress"!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist asks the following questions to Jerry. here are my responses to his questions and his conclusion.

Biblicist: 1. Do people do righteousness IN ORDER to have been born of God?

HP: God accounts their faith as righteousness, and because faith is indeed an act of the will in a sense they do what is required of God ( which is righteousness, or right actions in accordance to the commands of God) for something to be declared righteous by Him.

Biblicist: 2. Do people love IN ORDER TO have been born of God?

HP: Love always involves obedience. When a sinner acts obediently in faith, that is indeed an act of love and benevolence towards the commands of God and God Himself, so I would again say, yes in a sense they do show love towards God antecedent to salvation.

Biblicist: If not, then neither do people "believe" IN ORDER TO have been born of God!

HP: But that is precisely where you are wrong and your conclusion built on sand. God commands them to believe in order to be saved in spite of your 'straining gnats and swallowing camels' approach to the GK text. The new birth is a result of God regenerating the heart 'as a result of' man fulfilling Gods conditions he set forth. Bear in mind that all the requirements God demands of man are NOT meritorious in nature and are NOT the grounds of their salvation. Every requirement of God is thought of in the sense of not without which, NOT that for the sake of, as clearly pointed out in the illustration of the man receiving a pardon.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Wrong! You are failing to read him correctly. Note the words "Including of course"! What is being included as "in progress"??

Let us look at EXACTLY what is said:

"...or as taking place in present time (including, of course, duration on one side or the other of the present moment..."

It is talking about something "as taking place in the present time." And included in the idea of something "taking part in the present tense is the idea the 'duration" which is associated with the present tense is in regard to being "on one side OR the other of the present moment.

NOT both sides, as you imagine, but one side OR the other.

You want to continue to talk about the Greek because you obviously have no answer to my response to what you said here:

If not, then neither do people "believe" IN ORDER TO have been born of God!

Here we can see that "believing" is in the "present" tense and "passing from death unto life" is in the "perfect" tense:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. And that is because no one is passed from death unto life until they believe:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You continue to run as fast as you can from this and it is obvious why:

You have no answer.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist asks the following questions to Jerry. here are my responses to his questions and his conclusion.



HP: God accounts their faith as righteousness, and because faith is indeed an act of the will in a sense they do what is required of God ( which is righteousness, or right actions in accordance to the commands of God) for something to be declared righteous by Him.


HP: Love always involves obedience. When a sinner acts obediently in faith, that is indeed an act of love and benevolence towards the commands of God and God Himself, so I would again say, yes in a sense they do show love towards God antecedent to salvation.




HP: But that is precisely where you are wrong and your conclusion built on sand. God commands them to believe in order to be saved in spite of your 'straining gnats and swallowing camels' approach to the GK text. The new birth is a result of God regenerating the heart 'as a result of' man fulfilling Gods conditions he set forth. Bear in mind that all the requirements God demands of man are NOT meritorious in nature and are NOT the grounds of their salvation. Every requirement of God is thought of in the sense of not without which, NOT that for the sake of, as clearly pointed out in the illustration of the man receiving a pardon.

Ephesians 2:10 repudiates your whole interpretation "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" Hence, good works do not precede new birth but are the product of new birth.

 

[The Biblicist]

You have no answer.

You quote him and then MISINTERPRET what he says! He is not saying that "in progress" or "duration" of present tense can only occur on one side of the present moment but not the other side of the present moment! That is aburd!

The present tense never indicates a beginning or ending point and that is exactly what he is saying. Because the present tense does not indicate a beginning point it is necessarily in progress before the present moment or otherwise it would indidate a beginning point before the present moment. Because the present tense does not indicate an ending point it is in progress after the present moment or otherwise it would indicate an ending point after the present moment.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You quote him and then MISINTERPRET what he says!

Again you put words in my mouth which I never said. You are merely building a straw man so that you can knock it over.

You quoted my words:

You have no answer.

And then you IGNORE what my words were in regard to.Here we can see that "believing" is in the "present" tense and "passing from death unto life" is in the "perfect" tense:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. And that is because no one is passed from death unto life until they believe:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You continue to run as fast as you can from this and it is obvious why:

You have no answer.

 

[The Biblicist]

Again you put words in my mouth which I never said. You are merely building a straw man so that you can knock it over.

You quoted my words:

And then you IGNORE what my words were in regard to.Here we can see that "believing" is in the "present" tense and "passing from death unto life" is in the "perfect" tense:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. And that is because no one is passed from death unto life until they believe:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You continue to run as fast as you can from this and it is obvious why:

You have no answer.

I will try one last time to present the proper argument that your Greek scholar is saying and yet you are misinterpreting his words.

Because the present tense does not indicate either a beginning point in the past, or a terminating point in the future, IT IS NECESSARY that BOTH prior and future to the "present moment" that BOTH are "durative" OR "in progress."

Why? Because if PRIOR to the "present moment" it was not durative then it would necessarly supply a BEGINNING POINT - hence, prior to the "present moment" it must be progressive OR durative OR in progress as well.

Because if AFTER the "present moment" it was NOT durative OR in progress OR incomplete action then it would necessarily include an ENDING point.

Now, notice my repeated use of "or" when I said "durative OR in progress"!!! Am I making a contrast or am I making both inclusive of the same point????

I am making BOTH inclusive of the same point and that is how your Greek scholar is using the term "or"!

BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE PROPER USE OF THE PRESENT TENSE YOU IMPROPERLY INTERPRET JOHN 5:25 TO MEAN SOMETHING IT IS NOT.

I have give you the proper interpretation and you have yet to respond to it and show why it is grammatically incorrect. Why should I do it all over again when you simply ignore the evidence placed in your face???

Do I mean it must be only one OR the other as in contrast OR do I mean I am repeated the same thing in different terms

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I will try one last time to present the proper argument that your Greek scholar is saying and yet you are misinterpreting his words.

No, you are trying your best to IGNORE what answers the question under discussion. You would rather argue the meaning of the Greek construction in one verse. By the way, what are your credentials in the Greek language?

The following proves that you are WRONG and you refuse to even attempt to defend your position:

Here we can see that "believing" is in the "present" tense and "passing from death unto life" is in the "perfect" tense:

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes (present tense) him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over (perfect tense) from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

The present tense does not tell us when the act of believing began but we can know that it started at the same time when the believer is passed from death unto life. And that is because no one is passed from death unto life until they believe:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

You continue to run as fast as you can from this and instead all you want to do is discuss the Greek at 1 John 1:1. By the way, what are your credentials in the Greek language?

Thanks!

 

[The Biblicist]

No, you are trying your best to IGNORE what answers the question under discussion.

Have you had any training in Greek whatsoever? I have had several years of classroom training in Greek. Not boasting at all. Just fact.

How can we discuss the present tense used in 1 Jn. 5:1 or John 5:24 or in John 20:30-31 when you don't even understand what your own authority is defining it to be???????????

 

[convicted1]

Now that makes sense to me.

Yep. That was sure "plain n simple".....:laugh: