Does regeneration precede faith?

[InTheLight]

Who are you talking to and what is the question?

Talking to you. You said:

Man is born an enemy and hater of God and considers the gospel to be foolishness so why would he choose it?

Explain why millions and millions of unregenerate souls attended church this Easter Sunday? (and every Sunday for that matter)

Why do these people who you say hate God go looking for Him on a weekly basis?

 

[Iconoclast]

I'll never have to face the Calvinist god.

11 He hath said in his heart, God hath forgotten: he hideth his face; he will never see it.
12 Arise, O Lord; O God, lift up thine hand: forget not the humble.

13 Wherefore doth the wicked contemn God? he hath said in his heart, Thou wilt not require it.:wavey::wavey:

Each man will give an account to the True and living God.

I have heard people say things like;

The God of the OT was mean, or unjust. The God of the NT is very nice and kind.

They say this as if the God of Jn 3:16 did not destroy the world of the ungodly.

The denial of the biblical facts does not change the biblical attributes, plan and purpose of the Biblical God.

Your denial of the Covenant keeping nature of the biblical God does not stand. This God is indeed the "Calvinist God" in full Holiness of the truth. I would caution you not to speak of Him as you have.

 

[InTheLight]

Still no answer.

If unregenerate people are "walking corpses" with no free will to seek out God, why were millions of them going to church service on Easter Sunday?

Why do people who supposedly hate God seek Him out on a weekly basis?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Still no answer.

If unregenerate people are "walking corpses" with no free will to seek out God, why were millions of them going to church service on Easter Sunday?

Why do people who supposedly hate God seek Him out on a weekly basis?

In The Light,

The Bible tells us the Pharisees in Jesus's day went to worship service and were more involved in the Old Testament religion than most in their day, yet Christ criticized them the most and they also crucified are Lord, are you going to assert they were "seeking God" because they attended service to worship Jehovah? These Jewish leaders prove people can go to church as a good work in an effort to earn salvation, but this is certainly not seeking the true God of the Bible.

 

[InTheLight]

In The Light,

The Bible tells us the Pharisees in Jesus's day went to worship service and were more involved in the Old Testament religion than most in their day, yet Christ criticized them the most and they also crucified are Lord, are you going to assert they were "seeking God" because they attended service to worship Jehovah? These Jewish leaders prove people can go to church as a good work in an effort to earn salvation, but this is certainly not seeking the true God of the Bible.

The Pharisee's were seeking the One True God. Incorrectly perhaps, but seeking, nevertheless.

Last Sunday millions of people DID go out seeking the true God of the Bible, the risen Savior, Jesus Christ. And millions of people have been doing it for centuries. So how can these people, who supposedly hate God and have no desire to seek Him, go looking for Him on a weekly basis?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

The Pharisee's were seeking the One True God. Incorrectly perhaps, but seeking, nevertheless.

I am sorry, but the Bible disagrees with your assertion above. Did not Jesus state, "seek, and ye shall find" (Matthew 7:7), if the Pharisees were seeking God according to Jesus they would find (the verse says "shall" not "might), but rather the Pharisees crucified Christ! John 5:39 says, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." Apparently, people like the Pharisees can perform religious acts such as attending service and even reading the scriptures, but not be seeking Jesus! If they were seeking Jesus, why did he call them Vipers?


Consider these verses,"23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess." (Matthew 23:23-25) and "33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell" (Matthew 23:33) Notice the Pharisees attended service, read scripture, and even paid tithe, however they were a generation of vipers who could not "escape the damnation of hell". Indeed they were very religious, but to assert they were "seeking" Jesus in light of the passages I just gave you is ridiculous, don't you think?

 

[steaver]

I am sorry, but the Bible disagrees with your assertion above. Did not Jesus state, "seek, and ye shall find" (Matthew 7:7), ?

It does indeed, so you believe Jesus was telling them to do something they could not do. This is the problem with Calvinism, all throughout the bible we find God commanding folks to seek God, repent and believe, while the Calvinist believes it is all in vain, God speaking in vain.

Was the Ethiopian of Acts 8 seeking God without understanding?

 

[InTheLight]

I am sorry, but the Bible disagrees with your assertion above. Did not Jesus state, "seek, and ye shall find" (Matthew 7:7), if the Pharisees were seeking God according to Jesus

<snip>

Fourth time:

Last Sunday millions of people DID go out seeking the true God of the Bible, the risen Savior, Jesus Christ. And millions of people have been doing it for centuries. So how can these people, who supposedly hate God and have no desire to seek Him, go looking for Him on a weekly basis?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

It does indeed, so you believe Jesus was telling them to do something they could not do. This is the problem with Calvinism, all throughout the bible we find God commanding folks to seek God, repent and believe, while the Calvinist believes it is all in vain, God speaking in vain

Good we both agree the verse says "seek and ye shall find", it does not say, "seek and ye might find" therefore those who seek Jesus to believe the gospel are already regenerated as Jesus also said "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;" (John 6:37(a)). The Father first gave them to Jesus, after this they come.

"Seek and ye shall find" must be spoken only to all who will believe upon him, for if it was spoken of to people who seek, but some do not find, how could Jesus say they "shall find".?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Fourth time:

Last Sunday millions of people DID go out seeking the true God of the Bible, the risen Savior, Jesus Christ. And millions of people have been doing it for centuries. So how can these people, who supposedly hate God and have no desire to seek Him, go looking for Him on a weekly basis?

I replied to this in post 46, but as can be seen from a history of the postings, you never answered my questions, are you going to? I answered your question in post 46, but you did not answer mine. Also, I have another question, Romans 3:11(b) clearly states, "there is none that seeketh after God", who are the "none" in this verse? Finally, Ephesians 2:1 clearly states that prior to becoming born again we are "dead in trespasses and sins", how can a spiritually "dead" person seek God? A dead man can do nothing until he is first made alive.

 

[percho]

It does indeed, so you believe Jesus was telling them to do something they could not do. This is the problem with Calvinism, all throughout the bible we find God commanding folks to seek God, repent and believe, while the Calvinist believes it is all in vain, God speaking in vain.

Was the Ethiopian of Acts 8 seeking God without understanding?

No, because; Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14

 

[Reformed]

I know I am late to the party on this, but please allow me to get in my two cents.

The issue of whether regeneration precedes faith is answered by one's view of the Fall and sin. Is unregenerate man completely fallen in sin or not? If the answer is "yes" then regeneration must precede faith. If the answer is "no" then regeneration cannot precede faith. This subject must be satisfactorily addressed or any debate about regeneration preceding faith is fruitless.

 

[InTheLight]

I replied to this in post 46, but as can be seen from a history of the postings, you never answered my questions, are you going to? I answered your question in post 46, but you did not answer mine.

You never answered my question about modern day seekers, you answered it using the Pharisees as an example. Obviously the Pharisees are not going to be seeking Jesus. People that go to church on Resurrection Sunday are obviously seeking Christ.

Also, I have another question, Romans 3:11(b) clearly states, "there is none that seeketh after God", who are the "none" in this verse?

The "none" in this verse is a quotation of Psalms 10:4 and 14:2. These were the pagan nations other than Israel. They had many, many gods and did not seek the One True God. So Romans 3:11 is really an OT verse that contrasts Israel with pagan nations.

Finally, Ephesians 2:1 clearly states that prior to becoming born again we are "dead in trespasses and sins", how can a spiritually "dead" person seek God? A dead man can do nothing until he is first made alive.

Analogy is a famous canard by Calvinists. "Dead in trespasses and sins" means we are separated from God. It does not mean inability. It is a twisted analogy meant to prop up a false theology.

 

[Robert William]

I know I am late to the party on this, but please allow me to get in my two cents.

The issue of whether regeneration precedes faith is answered by one's view of the Fall and sin. Is unregenerate man completely fallen in sin or not? If the answer is "yes" then regeneration must precede faith. If the answer is "no" then regeneration cannot precede faith. This subject must be satisfactorily addressed or any debate about regeneration preceding faith is fruitless.

Right, how dead is dead? LOL:laugh:

You are right, the core of the issue is the doctrine of the fall of man. Those who hated that doctrine, (and that's the majority of mankind) were forced to create the mythological theory of free will.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You never answered my question about modern day seekers, you answered it using the Pharisees as an example. Obviously the Pharisees are not going to be seeking Jesus. People that go to church on Resurrection Sunday are obviously seeking Christ..

I gave the Pharisee example to prove that we cannot unilaterally say that all people who attend Sunday service are indeed born again. To answer your question more directly, I do not know the motive of the heart of a human being as I am not God, however if they are seeking God on Sunday it is because they are born again. Further, I would say if one believes Jesus died for their sins, rose again, and is Lord I think scripture makes it clear they are a child of God. I think many Calvinists may be surprised at how many people are in Heaven as the Bible tells us he has redeemed people in every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue that no man can number (Revelation 7:9).

I can agree with you that born again people seek God Did, but people that are not born again do not seek God. Did you play a role in your birth? Of course not, and likewise with your spiritual birth.

Analogy is a famous canard by Calvinists. "Dead in trespasses and sins" means we are separated from God. It does not mean inability. It is a twisted analogy meant to prop up a false theology.

The Bible is quite clear that a natural man has neither the ability nor the desire to repent and believe the gospel.
"43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43)
47 He that is of God heareth God's words (notice the one hearing is already of God): ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:47)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (John 10:26)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18A)

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You are right, the core of the issue is the doctrine of the fall of man. Those who hated that doctrine, (and that's the majority of mankind) were forced to create the mythological theory of free will.

I agree Robert William. The Bible even says it is not of a man's will when it states, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16) Man's will is only free to choose according to his nature which before being reborn is totally depraved.

 

[robustheologian]

I agree Robert William. The Bible even says it is not of a man's will when it states, "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16) Man's will is only free to choose according to his nature which before being reborn is totally depraved.

Amen...I don't get how people can ignore this precept. It is in plain English.

 

[DHK]

I gave the Pharisee example to prove that we cannot unilaterally say that all people who attend Sunday service are indeed born again. To answer your question more directly, I do not know the motive of the heart of a human being as I am not God, however if they are seeking God on Sunday it is because they are born again. Further, I would say if one believes Jesus died for their sins, rose again, and is Lord I think scripture makes it clear they are a child of God. I think many Calvinists may be surprised at how many people are in Heaven as the Bible tells us he has redeemed people in every nation, kindred, tribe and tongue that no man can number (Revelation 7:9).

I can agree with you that born again people seek God Did, but people that are not born again do not seek God. Did you play a role in your birth? Of course not, and likewise with your spiritual birth.

Did Nicodemus come, seeking out Christ?

 

[InTheLight]

Did Nicodemus come, seeking out Christ?

Indeed. What about the Magi?

 

[steaver]

I know I am late to the party on this, but please allow me to get in my two cents.

The issue of whether regeneration precedes faith is answered by one's view of the Fall and sin. Is unregenerate man completely fallen in sin or not? If the answer is "yes" then regeneration must precede faith. If the answer is "no" then regeneration cannot precede faith. This subject must be satisfactorily addressed or any debate about regeneration preceding faith is fruitless.

This is not the question. The question is unregenerate man completely unable to respond to God or not after his fall? The answer is crystal clear when we read how Adam was able to respond to God after his fall. As well as Cain. Should settle the matter, but Calvinist cling to Calvin's flawed theories.