Does regeneration precede faith?

[BrotherJoseph]

Did Nicodemus come, seeking out Christ?

I do not know if Nicodemus was regenerated before coming to Jesus in John 3 or if he was just a Pharisee looking to trap Jesus with questions like many of the others (if I was forced to "guess, I would assume the former as he didn't attempt to question him in front of the masses), however I wouldn't dream of ever forming a doctrine of regeneration preceding faith based upon speculation about this passage that does not give sufficient information for the reader to even ascertain if he was born again! My beliefs on how men come to seek God are formed based upon clear texts such as the ones I previously posted, but will copy and paste again below and await your explanations of these verses.

"43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43)
47 He that is of God heareth God's words (notice the one hearing is already of God): ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:47)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (John 10:26)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18A)

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Indeed. What about the Magi?

The Magi must have been regenerated as they were seeking the Jewish Messiah, rejoiced when Christ arrived, worshipped him in person, and gave offerings to him. "10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh" (Matthew 2:10-11).

Remember, "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1 John 5:1). The wise men meet the qualifications of this verse as proof by their actions in the text in Matthew 2.

 

[steaver]

I do not know if Nicodemus was regenerated before coming to Jesus in John 3 or if he was just a Pharisee looking to trap Jesus with questions like many of the others (if I was forced to "guess, I would assume the former as he didn't attempt to question him in front of the masses), however I wouldn't dream of ever forming a doctrine of regeneration preceding faith based upon speculation about this passage that does not give sufficient information for the reader to even ascertain if he was born again! My beliefs on how men come to seek God are formed based upon clear texts such as the ones I previously posted, but will copy and paste again below and await your explanations of these verses.

"43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43)
47 He that is of God heareth God's words (notice the one hearing is already of God): ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:47)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (John 10:26)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18A)

Regeneration is clearly taught as a post glorification of Jesus Christ implementation by God. Until Calvinist accept the written word on this matter, they will forever be stuck in the error of Calvinism.

A Holy God COULD NOT indwell a sin ridden man UNTIL the atonement was COMPLETED in real time. Read Hebrews 10. It is called the NEW COVENANT!!!

John7:38-39 -
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Crystal Clear!!!!

 

[InTheLight]

Does regeneration precede faith?

No.

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Does regeneration precede faith?

No.

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Old Baptist theologian/preacher John Gill wrote about this verse in his commentary of the Bible, "believers have their spiritual and eternal life through Christ; their life of grace, of justification on him, of sanctification from him, and communion with him; the support and maintenance of their spiritual life, and all the comforts of it: and also their life of glory, or eternal life, they have through, or in his name; it lies in his person, it comes to them through him as the procuring cause of it; it is for his sake bestowed upon them, yea, it is in his hands to give it, and who does give it to all that believe: not that believing is the cause of their enjoyment of this life, or is their title to it, which is the name, person, blood, and righteousness of Christ; but faith is the way and means in which they enjoy it; and therefore these signs are written by the evangelist for the encouragement of this faith in Christ, which is of such use in the enjoyment of life, in, through, and from him
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/john-20-31.html

In other words, faith is the means of how we learn about how we were redeemed by the blood of Christ, thus this is the means by how we know we have life and by this knowledge can enjoy the comfort and joy of knowing Christ lives in us. This belief is not the cause of having life. If you interpret that verse as meaning that belief is the cause to get life it contradicts so many other verses in John that I gave in prior posts in this thread that prove unbelievers cannot believe until they are first born of the spirit.

 

[Revmitchell]

In other words, faith is the means of how we learn about how we were redeemed by the blood of Christ,

Uh no the word of God is.

 

[InTheLight]

The Magi must have been regenerated as they were seeking the Jewish Messiah, rejoiced when Christ arrived, worshipped him in person, and gave offerings to him.

They were astrologers. I doubt they were regenerated.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Uh no the word of God is.

Yes, faith in the word of God.

 

[Revmitchell]

We do not know exactly what the magi were other than they were counselors to the king. These counselors were made up of astrologers and other types of people. They were not just astrologers. They most likely new of this Messiah because of Daniel many years earlier.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

We do not know exactly what the magi were other than they were counselors to the king. These counselors were made up of astrologers and other types of people. They were not just astrologers. They most likely new of this Messiah because of Daniel many years earlier.

I agree, they knew of the Old Testament prophecies.

 

[InTheLight]

We do not know exactly what the magi were other than they were counselors to the king. These counselors were made up of astrologers and other types of people. They were not just astrologers. They most likely new of this Messiah because of Daniel many years earlier.

Magi were astrologers, magicians, and alchemists.

The link between the Magi and Daniel is pure conjecture.

 

[InTheLight]

This belief is not the cause of having life. If you interpret that verse as meaning that belief is the cause to get life it contradicts so many other verses in John that I gave in prior posts in this thread that prove unbelievers cannot believe until they are first born of the spirit.

Oh boy. You haven't given one verse that says someone can't believe until they are born of the spirit. Certainly not mentioned here:

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Regeneration is clearly taught as a post glorification of Jesus Christ implementation by God. Until Calvinist accept the written word on this matter, they will forever be stuck in the error of Calvinism.

A Holy God COULD NOT indwell a sin ridden man UNTIL the atonement was COMPLETED in real time. Read Hebrews 10. It is called the NEW COVENANT!!!

John7:38-39 -
"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Crystal Clear!!!!

The fruit of the Spirit’s regenerating work is faith (Ephesians 2:8). There were men of faith in the Old Testament because Hebrews 11 names many of them. If faith is produced by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, then this must be the case for Old Testament saints who looked ahead to the cross, believing that what God had promised in regard to their redemption would come to pass. They saw the promises and “welcomed them from a distance” (Hebrews 11:13), accepting by faith that what God had promised, He would also bring to pass.

The Spirit’s work in the Old Testament is also indwelling, or filling, but the major difference between the Spirit’s roles in the Old and New Testaments is the New Testament teaches the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers (1 Corinthians 3:16-17; 6:19-20). The Apostle Paul calls this permanent indwelling the “guarantee of our inheritance” (Ephesians 1:13-14). In contrast to this work in the New Testament, the indwelling in the Old Testament was selective and temporary. The Spirit “came upon” such Old Testament saints as Joshua (Numbers 27:18), David (1 Samuel 16:12-13) and Saul (1 Samuel 10:10). In the book of Judges, we see the Spirit “coming upon” the various judges whom God raised up to deliver Israel from their oppressors. The Holy Spirit came upon these individuals for specific tasks. The indwelling was a sign of God’s favor upon that individual (in the case of David), and if God’s favor left an individual, the Spirit would depart (e.g., in Saul’s case in 1 Samuel 16:14)

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Oh boy. You haven't given one verse that says someone can't believe until they are born of the spirit..

I did give verses, but perhaps you haven't been fully reading my posts. Here they are again from post 55,
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43)
47 He that is of God heareth God's words (notice the one hearing is already of God): ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:47)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (John 10:26)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18A)

Certainly not mentioned here:

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.

The first verse you gave above (John 3:18) the word "believes" is in present tense. It does not say "whoever will believe in him is not condemned", but, "whoever believes", thus the person believing is already born again and your theory not proved.

The next verse you gave (John 3:36) also has the word "believes" in the present tense and states such an individual is already possessing "eternal life". It clearly states, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life" it does not say "whoever will believe in the Son will get eternal life". As for the last part of that verse, the version you used (I do not know what version it is) states, " but whoever rejects the Son will not see life," however the King James version (which is the closest version to the literal Greek original language) renders it, "and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life". This translation is a totally different meaning. You cannot "reject" something that was never offered, thus I really take issue with the translators of whatever paraphrased version it is you are using.

Finally, notice the last part of the verse you provided states in your version, "...for God’s wrath remains on them", does God's wrath remain on those he loves? Of course not, thus this verse proves God does not love every human being, but rather only the sheep not the Goats. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine" (John 17:9)

 

[DHK]

I do not know if Nicodemus was regenerated before coming to Jesus in John 3 or if he was just a Pharisee looking to trap Jesus with questions like many of the others (if I was forced to "guess, I would assume the former as he didn't attempt to question him in front of the masses), however I wouldn't dream of ever forming a doctrine of regeneration preceding faith based upon speculation about this passage that does not give sufficient information for the reader to even ascertain if he was born again! My beliefs on how men come to seek God are formed based upon clear texts such as the ones I previously posted, but will copy and paste again below and await your explanations of these verses.

"43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word." (John 8:43)
47 He that is of God heareth God's words (notice the one hearing is already of God): ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (John 8:47)
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (John 10:26)
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness" (1 Corinthians 1:18A)

When he came to Jesus, Jesus told him: "You must be born again."
He told him that three times. The way I understand most of you to understand that phrase to be paraphrased is simply: "you must be regenerated." After all isn't that what the new birth is: regeneration?
Isn't that what Nicodemus needed? To be regenerated?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

When he came to Jesus, Jesus told him: "You must be born again."
He told him that three times. The way I understand most of you to understand that phrase to be paraphrased is simply: "you must be regenerated." After all isn't that what the new birth is: regeneration?
Isn't that what Nicodemus needed? To be regenerated?

Well hello again DHK!

Jesus said "ye must be born again" in answer to Nicodemus's question in John 3:4, "4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" He may not have been specifically referring to Nicodemus as being in need of being born again, but rather just answering Nicodemus's question that was general in nature when Nicodemus said "how can a man be born when he is old?" Man can not cause their own birth.

 

[The Archangel]

1. Man is passive.
This simply means that the object is not know.

Nicodemus was born again (by whom?)
Jesus was baptized (by whom?)
I was saved (by whom?)

So it is put in the passive tense. So what. That doesn't prove anything.

Again, for the umpteenth time, passive in Greek means that the subject (Nicodemus, in this case) is acted upon by someone else. In this case, it is understood that he was acted upon by God. It's referred to as the "Divine Passive" because there's no one in the immediate context acting upon him...

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

Again, for the umpteenth time, passive in Greek means that the subject (Nicodemus, in this case) is acted upon by someone else. In this case, it is understood that he was acted upon by God. It's referred to as the "Divine Passive" because there's no one in the immediate context acting upon him...

The Archangel

:applause::applause::applause:

 

[DHK]

Well hello again DHK!

Jesus said "ye must be born again" in answer to Nicodemus's question in John 3:4, "4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" He may not have been specifically referring to Nicodemus as being in need of being born again, but rather just answering Nicodemus's question that was general in nature when Nicodemus said "how can a man be born when he is old?" Man can not cause their own birth.

We won't dispute that. But what should be agreed on is that the point that Jesus was making was that there was still a necessity of the new birth as far as Nicodemus was concerned. Otherwise Jesus went into a very detailed conversation with Nicodemus about the new birth for no reason at all. It was all in vain. What was the reason for this discussion?
Why?
The reason: He needed regeneration!

Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[Reformed]

This is not the question. The question is unregenerate man completely unable to respond to God or not after his fall?

Um...that is what I was getting at. So, my point still stands and can save a lot of pointless debate on this subject. If the Fall resulted in spiritual death then regeneration must precede faith. If not then faith must precede regeneration. It is really quite simple.